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Deep Space and Dragons
The Chainsaw Man Meets Fullmetal Alchemist: Ranking Fiction's Best Power Systems
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Richard and |<arl explore their favorite power systems across anime, manga, and other media, discussing what makes a system effective for storytelling versus what creates plot inconsistencies.
• Dragon Ball Z's power system fails because it introduced numerical power levels without clear meaning
• Fullmetal Alchemist illustrates how a power system can perfectly integrate with the story's themes through equivalent exchange
• Naruto's early chakra system excelled by creating clear limitations and rock-paper-scissors element relationships
• Hunter x Hunter's Nen system started strong but became overcomplicated in later arcs
• World Trigger's quantified energy reserves create tactical depth but the manga stopped utilizing its system
• Paranoid Mage's geometric pattern-based magic offers intuitive yet complex possibilities
• The best power systems directly reflect character personalities and development
• Chainsaw Man exemplifies how powers can be metaphors for character psychology
• Avatar: The Last Airbender's bending system offers consistent rules with creative applications
• A great power system maintains internal consistency while allowing for strategic application
For more conversations about storytelling mechanics, fiction analysis, and our other random tangents, follow Deep Space and Dragons wherever you get your podcasts.
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Hello, deep Space and Dragon fans that probably need a cute nickname. I'm Richard, a member of the Deep Space and Dragons team and, I'm going to say, lead anchor of this podcast.
Speaker 2:Oh, those are some fighting words, but it is Richard and Carl present Deep Space and Dragons, despite that not being alphabetical, so there must be some significance to your name being first Dyslexia, so there must be some significance to your name being first. Dyslexia, but I am Carl, the only other team member of the Space and Dragons. There's only two of us.
Speaker 1:I really thought you were going to Hyplord, where I was going to be the lead anchor and you were going to be the supreme anchor, the Grand Admiral. I really thought you were just going to throw out a more nonsense title to my nonsense title.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, I would have to think of a nonsense title first, and it would be something better than having anything to do with Anchor.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I can see you going full pun like I'm lead Anchor and you're like and I'm Titanic Iceberg. It's better than Anch anchor at stopping ships.
Speaker 2:My fiance and I did, uh. We went to london drugs, uh and uh, the titanic board game was on sale for half off, so it was only like 750 you know what's wild is I low-key, know this from random facebook notifications.
Speaker 1:Like, I had this lore in advance because, like very few people. So I use Facebook because I'm an author and I'm, like, obligated to, so that way, people over 60 can see my workload and like, the only people who use Facebook now are like people over 60 or your direct relatives and loved ones. There is no middle ground Because, like I deal with a lot of college students who use Instagram or Snapchat or WhatsApp, whatsapp I hate WhatsApp, not the purpose of this episode, but and if they sponsor me, I might change my mind, but for where I'm at right now, no, Okay, well, why do you hate WhatsApp so much?
Speaker 1:I don't know. It's just something about it like it feels like it's malware, even though it's not. Like it just feels malware-y, like I just get more spam messages when I have it. Technically, I hate Meta more as Meta literally Just to go political and get us canceled meta legitimately to train its AI, use Library Genesis and stole outright hundreds of thousands of authors' novels. Because Library Genesis is a pirating site and if you take the books from the pirating site to train your AI, you're just committing a crime. Books from the pirating site to train your AI, you're just committing a crime. But because we have some weird loophole that says if you commit crime but use a fancy word for it, you're immune to the law. So nothing will probably happen. But literally my professor's like oh, here's my novel stolen on Library Genesis and then fed to Meta's AI. You know it'd be cool Reparation in any way for this crime.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean as an author. But yeah. Well as an author. His book was also stolen.
Speaker 2:Is there anything more legal? That's new with Richard in the Richardverse now.
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't know, but they stole my novel to train my AI. Without consent. They stole your novel. Yeah, my novel got pirated onto Library Genesis and then stolen.
Speaker 2:Wait, how does that stuff get on Library? Genesis, then Just anything that was ever published.
Speaker 1:What people do is they'll download an e-book, rip the PDF, upload to Library Genesis and then return the e-book. So, then they get a refund and then the digital ripped copy gets onto Library Genesis. I see you know crime.
Speaker 2:That does sound like a crime. I didn't realize you could return e-books, I mean aside from the ones you borrow from the library.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a whole thing that you can return an e-book within a certain amount of time. A lot of authors got dinged on that, where it's a whole thing that you can return an e-book within a certain amount of time. A lot of authors got dinged on that where they would get negative pay stubs from returns. So long story short, if our podcast gets canceled because I'm like hey Meta, I'd like you to give a statement and an apology for directly stealing my professor's novel. I stand by it.
Speaker 1:You don't care that your novel was stolen, just your professor, I'm low-key, flattered I'm just happy to be included I'm just happy to be included that someone, someone stole my not one of the 200 people stole it to upload and pirate it, so other people. The thing is if anyone wants my novel he can't afford it. If they email me, I'll just send them a copy of my novel, like there's no reason to use crime.
Speaker 2:You are at the point where piracy is actually just good publicity for your novel.
Speaker 1:Yeah, unless it's used to train an AI, and then I'm mad Because no one's reading my novel. They're just like hey, I'm going to make this robot sound more like this mediocre fiction novel. I'm like, hey, I'm offended by this. Like, did you flag it as mediocre when you used it to train the AI? Because that's not cool.
Speaker 2:Speaking of AI, you did have a little bit of an advance warning about this tangent here, but I was. Recently I was playing Donkey Kong Land and I beat the first Donkey Kong Land and then I started playing Donkey Kong Land 2, and it was like the first world was Gangplank Galleon.
Speaker 1:For the record, I was setting you up for this tangent. This was a deliberate AI tangent. Like I said, I'm weirdly prepared this week. I don't have a script. Like I have a group project right now. Like do you have a script? I'm like no, I'll just say everything. You forget about the assignment good strategy, okay.
Speaker 2:So, um, I got curious. I was like, okay, how many stages? Initially I looked for, uh, donkey kong country, but how many stages in Donkey Kong? Do not use alliteration.
Speaker 1:Fair, fair.
Speaker 2:And it's like you know. I could go through and look through all of the different stage titles myself and count up the ones that don't use alliteration, but this exact kind of data crunching is what AI should be good at, right In theory, like it should be able to parse through the information much more quickly, much quicker and more accurately than I can, and I so I know I was using the version of ChatGPT where you don't actually log in and apparently, if you log in, you can get smarter answers.
Speaker 1:But I asked ChatGPT.
Speaker 2:I asked ChatGPT how many stages in Donkey Kong Country don't use alliteration, and so it said here's a breakdown of the stages that do not follow the alliterative naming pattern Reptile, Rumble Kong, Fused Cliffs, Blackout Basement and Oil Drum Alley. Now Oil Drum Alley alley. That one's an obvious.
Speaker 2:that's a giver gimme, but the other three the other three, it's like, yeah, no, those are definitely alliterations. So it's final answer is like, oh, yeah, there's four. So then I am like, hey, chat GPT, is reptile rumble alliteration? And they're like, well, now that you mention it, yes, yes, they are. Yes, that is alliteration. I realize now I made a mistake in my previous answer and there are only three stages that don't use alliteration. It's like, okay, you're getting closer, yeah, so that said, chat GPT, there are some errors in your previous answer. Can you go through it and fix that for me? And then it's like, okay, okay, okay. Well, you know, there are actually zero stages that don't use alliteration, including vulture culture.
Speaker 1:What so here's the joke so like this is probably drained like 20 liters of water to do this data research. I'm on the Wikipedia right now Jungle High, chinks Barrel, cannon Canyon, stop and Go Station, clam City and clam city and really gnarly rampage. Those are the ones that don't use alliteration. I used my braid and it only took one sippy of water in any event, I never got the right answer from chat GPT.
Speaker 2:I was able to get three wrong answers. In any event, I never got the right answer from ChatGPT. I was able to get three wrong answers, and then I just gave up because it wasn't really that important.
Speaker 1:But I don't know it seems pretty important.
Speaker 2:That got me thinking. I don't know if it's necessarily the most iconic stage title, but for some reason Jungle Japes just stands out as a stage title Because it's a Smash Bros stage, I think. It is the Smash Bros stage and apparently I think it's the first stage or the first world in Donkey Kong 64, which I've never played and I don't think I ever will, because first-generation 3D gaming was just awful.
Speaker 1:I mean, the Nintendo 64 has about five games that are still playable. So you're not wrong, because I want to be like well, what about Pokemon Stadium? And you could answer with well, no, but I'll be like fair enough.
Speaker 2:But so then I'm thinking about it and I'm like well, what even is a Jape? Do you? Do you know what a Jape is?
Speaker 1:I want to, I want to know, I want it to be like. That's what this means. Because like oh man, because like oh man.
Speaker 2:Apparently, a jape is somewhat akin to a prank or a joke, and so I'm looking up all these alliterations and I'm like what is even a jape? I look up what jape is right, and then I'm reading a book, and the book I'm reading is one of the Paranoid Mage books. There's five of them. I read the Webtoon which got to the end of season one, which is the first two books. I thought it was pretty good, and then I started reading the books because they're online for free on Royal Road, which is Well, I don't know which one's classier, but it's basically an alternative to wattpad or wattpad I mean wattpad is a vital, vital fact function in our society.
Speaker 1:well, it lets people put out work to have other people read it, without being legally defending like you can just like put bad fanfic on wattpad like wattpad makes sense to exist and probably would have been a smarter place for me to put my first novel, but then I wouldn't have that cash money.
Speaker 2:Well, in any event, like I say, I'm not sure which one's classier, but web novels seem to be a growing segment.
Speaker 1:I mean, if I had won the lottery and want to start up a company, I'd probably do some sort of web-based publishing house, like. I love the idea of doing like a show and jump for light novels, where it's like five or six run on, go like 10 ongoing series that have one chapter of each and like a monthly collection, and then I just run them through till they end and put in new ones and one shots be great. Yeah, not related to anything, that's just how I would distribute it.
Speaker 2:It'd be cool but so, uh, the paranoid mage, I started reading the book on on royal road, which is like I say, it's like what fad. Yeah, um and uh. I just like I became obsessed. There's five books. I guess I could do with the math to try and figure out how long it took me to read, but it took about 15 minutes per chapter. There's roughly 20 chapters per book, so I guess that's like 1500 minutes to read the whole series. Nice, anyways, that's not really the point. The point is that the point is that at one point a character in the series he's the leader of a fae enclave, so he's a fairy of sorts, and the book unironically used the term jape. I was just like, oh man, that's super funny.
Speaker 2:And the book unironically used the term Jape, I was just like, oh man, that's super funny, oh, that's pretty delightful, and I mean in context it's kind of an archaic word and it seems like it suits the character of the leader of a enclave. So it was like this it's perfect. But it's just super funny that I uh happened to define that because of looking up alliterative titles for donkey kong and the moral of this story is people should read more and ai sucks well, I mean, uh, assuming this is the what's new with me segment?
Speaker 2:oh, yeah, uh, it always continues because there's always more, well, not always more. So I get to the end of the final mage book, which is called Sovereign Mage.
Speaker 1:Which is not the title you gave yourself as a co-host.
Speaker 2:You could have been the Sovereign of Deep Space and Dragons, but no been the sovereign of deep space and dragons, but no, uh, so I mean, uh, the entire last book, uh, basically, is about, um, supernatural terrorists trying to cause nuclear destruction so they can blame it on their allies to gain political power when they rebuild from the well destruction. Um, and, and the main character, along with allies he's made along the way they manage to stop nuclear annihilation and save the day or whatever. And the book ends and I thought it was a very satisfying end to the series. Okay, but because it's on a website, royal Road at the end of each chapter there's a comment section oh, no, right, and uh, website, royal road. Uh, at the end of each chapter there's a comment section oh, no, right, uh, and uh, one of the comments was oh, I was disappointed by this ending because we never found out who the main character's dad was.
Speaker 2:Uh, and I'm just like it. Actually, the only reason that it mattered that nobody knew who his dad was was that he managed to just like appear out of nowhere. No one knew who he was, no one knew what family he came from, and then he's just some guy that appears out of nowhere and messes with the system until it basically breaks. And I'm sitting there, I'm thinking like why, why is that the thing that you're obsessed over that ruined the ending for you? And I'm sitting there and I'm thinking like what?
Speaker 1:Why is that the thing that you're obsessed over that ruined the ending for you? Like I don't get it. It's going to happen to every One Piece fan too, because One Piece fans are like yeah, we know Luffy's dad, but who's Luffy's mom? And the fan theory that it's one of the main villains, crocodile that got hit by a gender change punch, is such a good fan theory that I don't think the writer ever wants to cut that fan theory out because he finds it amusing. But I don't know if Japanese Weekly Show and Jump will let Luffy's mother be a 40-year-old man with a scar and a hook for a hand. I don't think they're going gonna let them get away with that they're like.
Speaker 2:What are their like?
Speaker 1:flagship, most iconic character. Having a transparent, I don't think is a thing they're gonna let them get away with, so he's probably just gonna never conclude it. Concludes it so that way he can still be like not take that away.
Speaker 1:I just don't know if he has oh, it is pretty brave, but that is that is a stance to make in japan in the current political world climate. Like right, a powerful stance I would fully respect. But I don't know, like a lot of people in anime anime loves to talk about you're special because a hard-working effort sure, 10 later, actually, your parents were special and I hate it I hate it so much.
Speaker 2:I kind of suspect that mentality is where this person was coming from, where a lot of the media that consumed the parentage is actually important to who the character is and what their powers are, but in this case it was actually important that we don't know who his parents are, because then he was just a nobody that rocked the system.
Speaker 1:The classic Ray Palpatine problem.
Speaker 2:So I'm sitting here I'm thinking, well, that seems like a petty complaint. But then I'm thinking solo leveling, the comic series is done, it reached a conclusion. So throughout the series there's the one S-Rank hunter, hunter Cha.
Speaker 2:She's like the second most recent hunter, right before Gene Wu becomes an S-Rank hunter, and throughout the series she's shown as covering her nose because she thinks the other hunters smell bad yeah uh, and when there's a particularly powerful enemy and their aura is overwhelming everyone, to her it just smells completely rancid, and so it's like she has a really sharp sense of smell that can smell auras. And there's another character who's kind of a side character, doesn't really show up very much, but he also is like oh, her sense of smell isn't as strong as mine, but it's a good thing I'm wearing those gas masks, because if I smell these auras it's awful, right, yeah. And then, for some reason, gene Wu smells good to Hunter Shaw yeah because he's the most perfect, special awesome boy Perfect, special awesome boy.
Speaker 2:And I don't know where I thought this story, this thread, was going to go, but in the end it seems that she fell in love with him because he smells good.
Speaker 1:Which I mean mean dating advice, like I really hope every person who I've played magic with went to anime conventions with entered tournaments with. If no one takes any other lesson from solo leveling, please take away that. Women like if you smell good, please let that be what solo leveling does for humanity. I will retract all of my quips about the system. The power jank all humanity. I will retract all of my quips about the system, the power jank all that. I will retract it all and be solo leveling best anime of all time if it results in people showering more.
Speaker 2:But so she falls in love with him because he smells good.
Speaker 1:That's true. People enjoy when people smell good.
Speaker 2:He falls in love with her because she fell in love with him A little less good.
Speaker 2:And then he uses some time-traveling shenanigans to basically track her down and get married to her in an alternate timeline. Sure, the ending leaves something to be desired. But I get to the ending I was like, okay, most of this was adequate, but what was up with Hunter Shaw's sense of smell? That just didn't seem to actually go anywhere and I just I didn't like the way her storyline arced and ended basically right. But then I'm thinking to myself and this is kind of the end of what's New With Me, kind of more of a question for you but I do shower regularly.
Speaker 2:Yes, no, the question is how, if there's something about an ending that you dislike, how do you know if you're just being petty or if it's actually a glaring plot hole that's worthy of complaining about?
Speaker 1:Ooh, I got this one. I am prepared to answer this because considering our main topic for the week, when we get into it about power systems and things, had my brain thinking a lot.
Speaker 1:So I gave a rant off stream last week that the problem with boruto is that in naruto you would explain a power and then use it in a fun, creative way later, and that happened to every good fight, and every bad fight was when they forgot to do that. So like using your lightning fist to pull down a lightning bolt out of the sky to hit someone because you made fire which created storm, was like a combination of like eight other moves, but wasn't bullshit because it was sick.
Speaker 1:Where, being God's special, perfect, chosen one who's been reincarnated with the chosen one powers of your chosen brother, was lame Right and thus made all of that lame. So to loop back into the, how do you know if an ending's petty or not?
Speaker 1:well, first off, as a writer and creative, I have the only objectively true opinion okay so if I like something or don't, it's always going to be justified because it's my opinion, right. But for me it's about narrative structure and payoff. Because, like I'm an editor, I literally read a 50 page like no, like a 200 something page book on how to edit poetry yesterday for an assignment. Like I read a lot about story structure, it's what I do, right, right, and an ending I will hate if it doesn't follow the story structure. So people forget that stories are about characters, right, and particularly, a story is about a character changing and you.
Speaker 1:You talk to people, especially young writers, and they'll talk about their setting, their magic system, their dynamicness. But if a character doesn't mark and change, the ending will be unsatisfied, because we're trained from the caveman era, if not earlier that you tell a person a story to impart a lesson.
Speaker 1:That is the fundamental policy of stories. So let's take full metal alchemist and I'll kind of pivot into our main topic of power systems while I'm at it, because it's a natural segue. Full metal alchemist one the first animated series that wasn't Brotherhood had a mediocre ending because he went through a portal and ended up in Nazi Germany and never punched out. Hitler.
Speaker 1:Or Brotherhood had what's widely considered to be a perfect ending, and the reason for this is the power system matched the character's goals and motivations. So it was about the concept of equivalent exchange. He wanted something he couldn't have, so he gave up something to obtain something else. The change in his philosophy and they outright spell it out for you, fullmetal Alchemist is he believed for something to be attained, something of equal value must be lost, and it changed to. If everybody chips in, you can have more than the sum of your parts.
Speaker 1:So the final solution to the fight was giving up what he had to return it to Edward. So he gives up his body to give back Ed's arm. But also that sub-theme of actually it's not equivalent because you can trust somebody. So Alphonse learned the lesson by being like oh, it's fine that I gave up my body because I trust other people to save me. I trust edward to do it. And then really it was greed who's who echoed the theme the most of I'm going to give up my life so everyone profits, despite being literally greed. So perfect ending. And there's no quips about the ending, because the ending covers the themes.
Speaker 2:Now let's go to.
Speaker 1:Kaido, because Kaido is a great example of an ending you cannot get over. The theme of Kaido was how does one negotiate with someone smarter than you without being taken advantage of, right? It was literally like the ethical session, it claimed was how do you outsmart someone smarter than you, right? So it's the entire series of people trying to outsmart each other, but the writer couldn't actually think of what the character arc was, so that ending's bad because our protagonist negotiator guy or Kaido alien dude either one could count as our protagonist.
Speaker 1:Neither of them learned anything had they learned something from each other to defeat each other. The ending would have been good. Gundams are another good example of this. It's like an anti-war message. That's cool. Pew pew war where gundam series that land involves someone learning something or in the case of the iron blood orphans.
Speaker 1:Everyone dies. Who's a main character? Because the thing they learned was don't be a terrorist trying to conquer the world. But then the side characters learned things about how to do better and got their mining rights. But like it's funny because if you're serious like war, war is bad. So I defeated them in a pew-pew fight and learned nothing. It's bad Now if your message is war is bad and I'm a pacifist but I'm going to kill this motherfucker. In particular, the lesson becomes you can't live in absolutes, you have to live in shades of gray.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So there's lots of ways to look at it, of what the series was trying to tell you to decide if the ending was good. So that's my rules, for it is an ending is worth complaining about If the characters didn't learn anything, because then usually it's a side effect the ending is bad.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Got to address the real causes to these things.
Speaker 2:Then, like I say that there was this setup for hunter chobb with the extreme sense of smell and the other character who also had an extreme sense of smell, and then the payoff was just that she fell in love with her main character because he smells good and it's like that's.
Speaker 1:That's a weird payoff yeah, because she didn't learn anything. There should have been something to learn there. The lesson was he smelled good because he was an ordinary person, or the reason he smelled good wasn't tied into his powers. Or if he had earned the powers and therefore smelled good Like he smelled good because his powers came from doing daily push-ups, then there'd be some payoff. Right. But like, let's be honest, you can't give a female character in a lot of these series payoff if you didn't write them to have a personality in the first place, because then they don't have anything to arc God a lot of manga is bad other female characters.
Speaker 2:You know what's wild, that is true.
Speaker 1:Do you want to know what the actual somatic lesson of Rion and Kenshin was?
Speaker 2:What.
Speaker 1:It was. You can't run from your problems, but also at some point you just have to let things go and be someone else's problem.
Speaker 1:So it's like Kenshin starts by oh I have to run from my problems, I'm going to be a Rionan. Then gets dropped into all this drama, runs off solo, and then all of his final fights are when he actually lets other people help him and then he gets to retire peacefully. So really he just had to learn how to retire was actually the lesson of that show instead of trying to kill himself Fair enough.
Speaker 1:Therefore no one had any complaints about its ending, although it ended twice for some reason. So to segue into our main topic, which we haven't actually mentioned yet, is our personal favorite power systems across media. Pretty much All right, so I'm going to pivot into that. I gave what's not my personal favorite, but my oh, you're going to go first. Fine, bite me.
Speaker 2:Oh, you're going to go first. Fine, bite me. Well, I'm not going to go first. I was just going to ask you does Rion and Kenshin count of actually even having a power system?
Speaker 1:Absolutely, it does so. Rion and Kenshin's power system is absolutely. When. Was it like episode five or chapter five, when a guy uses his murderous intent to glare at someone so she can't breathe?
Speaker 1:yeah, now we have a power system. People can actually ki blast each other. So I think it's a power system if it's like people are doing what are supernatural or even natural, but above natural feats. But you can categorize and weigh, like if you paralyze someone with ki, if you use the reverse blade of your sword to use a shockwave to stun your ears, like yeah, no, the power is badass, swordsmanship, but also Ki manipulation is kind of a thing.
Speaker 1:So it's a power system and one of my like examples for favorite power systems. I'll go into a little later. Ki counts as a power system, even though Rion and Kenshin doesn't use it particularly well Like a dude's, like my sword's on fire because his blades are sharp and catch fat and I'm like I guess your power system is how good your sword is when Bleach's power system is, literally how good your sword is and also power for some reason which I will rant about later.
Speaker 2:But okay, so then, like another iconic show that's kind of in the similar vein, the power system is just martial arts and ki uh, but you would say that, uh, like dragon ball z has a power system.
Speaker 1:Then so dragon ball z screwed up, so dragon ball power, which is one of the worst power systems in anime, is because Dragon Ball didn't have a power system and then a hundred chapters in it got one. So Dragon Ball Z is like oh, I have a machine that tells you how strong you are and we can just measure your key, that is your power level. It's a power system because it literally has levels. You can increase those levels, use techniques to play around with those levels and then people try and power scale by being like oh, x character is this strong? So y carrier is this strong?
Speaker 1:one of my favorite quotes from the dragon ball z abridged team is don't treat dragon ball more seriously than kira toriyama did, because roshi blowing up the moon completely destroys their power system. Because characters can just do random crap. So it's like, yeah, we know Vegeta is over 9000 RAR, but we don't know what 9000 is worth in tons of C4. So you watch Death Battle and be like he moves at the speed of light. I'm like, no, he doesn't. That would literally disassemble things at molecular level when you punch them. Yeah, but what about that? Time you punch beerus and their fists collide in nearby plants, disintegrate. I'm like, yeah, they can't power scale. I don't know what they're doing. Those numbers mean nothing. It is bad power scaling right, but it is absolutely a power system of person generates energy, uses it, turns energy into shapes to cut things, shoot things, enhance self.
Speaker 1:It also has magic and science in it. Like if you wanted to make a new series that turned Dragon Ball into a power system, you could do pretty well. But it's like if you add a Power Simpson into the Simpsons, 100 episodes in, you've already established so much that you're doomed. They're like you can't breathe. Like they made it a plot point you can't breathe in space. When Goku went to the moon and put a rabbit there already, yeah. So it's like can he breathe in space? Frieza said no, but he's went to the moon and had a conversation with a rabbit. Does?
Speaker 1:Earth's moon have air. Is the rabbit dead when Roshi blew it up? Did the rabbit dead when Roshi blew it up? Did the rabbit go to heaven? We don't know. Did he redeem his sins?
Speaker 2:I'll never know if that rabbit did enough good work to go to a good afterlife or not that rabbit's definitely dead or just floating through space.
Speaker 1:Or blocked it and turned it into a carrot. So yeah, tldr, dragon Ball fails at being being a power system, but absolutely has a power system. So like uh, go ahead, go ahead okay, um, well.
Speaker 2:So another segue, um, do you think that history's strongest disciple, kanichi, has a power system?
Speaker 1:not only do I think kanichi has a power system, I have it in third place for my favorite anime power system. Really so? Kenichi's power system is Street Fighter-tiered martial arts, and how it works is that every character is assigned a tier of how good they are, from the disciple to intermediate to expert to master level, and they give them percentages and numbers and then stick with them. We know two adapts can fight a low rank master.
Speaker 1:They tell us this and then kanichi and mu team up and fight a low rank master successfully and the idea is that if you do martial arts, do training, build up, you start getting these techniques, but then they're like okay we put in defense type and attack type, we put in implied ki and you know, at the very top you can fire Hadoukens, because they just show a person, hadouken, a tank outright.
Speaker 1:We're like this power system is insanely consistent, except the spirit bomb at the end, which I hate. Consistent, except the Spirit Bomb at the end, which I hate Because, as I explained in my mini-Naruto rant earlier, kenichi, anytime he pulls out a combination of moves, he already knows like oh, I have this bubble defense and I'm going to shrink it down to only cover my skin so I can move the slightest degree of angle, and then do the face-punch-simultaneous-gut-punch you go. Oh, he did the face punch side to his gut punch, low, kick, shuffle, like in one of the later fights. He does his little quarter step and I'm like, yeah, look at him, use that quarter step to then falcon punch somebody. Good stuff.
Speaker 1:So, GD is actually really good about following its internal logic and having a very measurable weirdly power system of yeah, these guys who are apprentice rank are in fact pretty consistently apprentice rank. Any two apprentice rank characters are close enough in power level that it comes down to skill and tactics. If you watch Siegfried fight Hermit, you don't think to yourself this is some bullshit. You think this is a sick fight. I think Hermmit's stronger but sigfried is an asshole. Therefore, right, they have a good fight. But you're like, no, sigfried would just die to apache, absolutely. But you watch the character grow and by the end you're like, oh, but maybe sigfried and hermit and this person could three on one apache now, because the show is pretty good about how much they've grown.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and then they start putting in things like here's my orbit rings as an attack type, here's my defense circle. And I'm like okay, even though we like didn't go full sci-fi on me, your system's pretty consistent, hmm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow, I didn't even think about that. Yeah, like you're right, the consistency, uh, is actually one of the most important things about a power system, which is which is why dragon ball kind of drops the ball and it's like to like kind of give examples.
Speaker 1:I like to call it degrees of narrative precision, and this came up in a workshop I was doing recently. The more specificity you describe something, the more you're stuck to your own rules, and if you just stay vague, you can stay vague. So let's go with Lord of the Rings' magic system. No one has ever questioned whether or not it works, because they haven't explained shit to you. The ring is magic, okay. Sauron is magic Okay, right, the ring is magic, okay, soar on his magic. Okay, gandalf is magic, okay, you don't really go. What are his upper limits? How much can he tell? Can exist, lift? How many spell slots does he have? And harry potter adds a degree of specificity to its magic system of you use words. You have a wand that has magic components in it that enhance your magic. If you try and do your magic without a wand, it's more chaotic. You have potions, you have books, and it's like your proficiency at magic is directly proportional to how much reading and writing you've done. Really, plus innate chosen one bullshit, right right.
Speaker 1:The more it starts to be specific. Like you get into a Harry Potter game and they start like labeling what spells you have, and when you start thinking, wait a minute, isn't there like a million ways you could just kill somebody in this? It's like other than the green death beam, couldn't I just like stop their heart.
Speaker 1:Right but then you get to things like Frearin, for example, is specific about the spells it's introduced but isn't specific about the magic system completely. Like there's your amount of mana, you can see it. You have more or less hiding. It's a good tactic and different spells use different amounts of it and require different focus and attention. And I only taught her the kill spell so she doesn't have to think about what spell to use, so she can beat me in a fight while I think about what spell to use and she just casts kill. Freerun's magic system's weird because it gave the non-magic characters just super strength and I'm like, okay, apparently you can just hit a cliff so hard it makes nuclear vision.
Speaker 2:The non-magic characters do seem to be somehow magically enhanced, so my brain assumes that Stark and things are using their mana to hit harder.
Speaker 1:I'm assuming the non-magic characters just hit things by beefing up their body with mana without realizing it.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I mean going to a more broad power system. In general, the D&D doesn't exactly consider the fighter's abilities to be magic, but they are superhuman and the universe does have magic within it. So it's not too far of a stretch to say that those abilities are somehow based in magic but internalized to be a physical trait.
Speaker 1:Well, I've absolutely ruled it as such, where it's like yeah, everyone has life force and you can turn that into magic or you can enhance your body or speed and your things with it.
Speaker 1:Because, apparently you can hit as hard as a meteorite. So it's like, because D&D is a weird one where I have to make sure the system works on the fly, I will absolutely just be like your rage, is you channeling your ancestor' fury or whatever I have to do to make the scene make sense. But yeah, every D&D character should probably have magic just straight up stated as how they do some of the things they do, right? Or it's like oh yeah, I just swung my gut sword so fast in six seconds with pure martial arts. I blew you to shit and I'm like humans can't do that. Martial arts. I blew you to shit and I'm like humans can't do that. So, like to loop back to like favorite systems. Like I said, fullmetal Alchemist does a really good job of its system. Is also its plot.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Where it's like yeah, no, that system it did work, Like I don't know if alchemy is my favorite power system, If you draw a circle which channels geothermal energy or spiritual ley lines to disassemble and reassemble matter based on your understanding of it. I don't know if it's my favorite magic system, but they got full use out of that system.
Speaker 2:I do not think they could have got more value out of it.
Speaker 1:for it, people's alchemy matched their personalities and their functionality. Give the hot-tempered war criminal a firepower he can't really use, because it just kills people until it's time to kill people. Give the disgraced doctor who murdered people to turn them into rocks medical techniques to try and pay off his crimes. The main, villain's main plan was to just use that power to take everyone's powers together, and they got defeated because another country figured it out differently.
Speaker 1:Like using the circle of an eclipse as a circle to screw him over was beautiful. So Fullmetal Alchemist I don't know if it's my favorite system. I will say it's probably the series that is the most consistent with its rules but, more importantly, weaves them the best into their story.
Speaker 2:And, like I say, power systems get a huge tick up in how much I like them anyways, if they're actually consistent consistent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like to go into like a side example and throw shade at something that has like a 9.9 on imbdi. Did not care for the final battle of avatar the last airbender, because he does his energy bending thing of like. The magic turtle taught me energy bending so I just took his bending away. Huzzah bending gone right and it's like.
Speaker 1:I hated that specifically because what did ang learn? He learned that a bunch of people tell you to kill stuff, but if you just don't kill people, that's the right thing to do, I'm like. But that didn't match his arc at all. He just stuck to his values. But he didn't really learn anything in that final fight of like anything. He just went to super mode, used a mcguffin and took away the guy's power. And now, in that final fight of like anything, he just went into super mode, used a MacGuffin and took away the guy's power. And now, in that exact same episode, we have Zuko fighting his unhinged sister under the fire. Full moon has super power, flame, zuko's arc trying to be to prove himself of honor. And the thing that wins him the fight isn't winning the fight, but honorably jumping in front of an attack lane to someone else and then she wins the fight. That was beautiful. Zuko learned to trust somebody.
Speaker 1:Azula learned that she went insane Because Katara is the one that beat Azula, so it's like I don't know what's considered to be one of the better magic systems of bending, which is pretty consistent. The only thing that's kind of inconsistent about bending is how much like physical energy bending uses out of a person. Because, like they, bend and they get tired and I'm like okay, but like the power scaling here is a little whack. But also, I'm not going to be as hard on a Nickelodeon cartoon, even if I should be well, so yeah, avatar the Last Airbender gets a lot of.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to be as hard on a Nickelodeon cartoon, even if I should be.
Speaker 1:Well, so yeah, avatar the Last Airbender gets a lot of slack for being just one of the best North American cartoons that's ever been made Right Like. And also another factor that goes into power systems for me specifically, where I'll even give bad ones extra credit, is how much play do I get like as a fanfic writer? What fun things can I do with that system so like?
Speaker 2:for avatar.
Speaker 1:They're like here's your elements, okay. And they're like here's blood bending under the moon. I'm like, oh what? And they're like here's how you make lightning. I'm like, okay, this has got interesting. Like I could be like an ink bender and strangle some with my tattoos. That's cool. So it's like a lot of like your brain gets to like ad lib things you would do with that system. So to go to a magic system. That's really good. Until the chauffeur refused to end Nen from Hunter Hunter, yeah okay.
Speaker 1:Because it's like you pick your category, what you're good at, you list your abilities and then you add extra terms and conditions to strengthen that ability. You're good at the main thing and then good at the adjacent things. Like they fully explain Nen, where you can easily fanfic a Nen ability and be really interesting with it, and they literally like give numbers like here's a percentage of spending your aura on this and this, but also they add a character who literally like put power levels on things, and they literally give numbers like here's the percentage of spending your aura on this and this, but also they had a character who literally put power levels on things People's power levels in Nen were close enough to each other that it was almost always the cleverer person that won Right, and very few fights felt like bullshit, except for Killia's bullshit.
Speaker 1:Sister has like infinity plus one powers to grant wishes or some shit. Right, right, sister has like infinity plus one powers to grant wishes or some shit right where it's like killing himself of, like, oh, I'm gonna make lightning to move along my nerve endings to dodge faster. I'm like that's sick. So hunter hunter system is pretty good, but hunter hunter is not pretty good anymore. And now they're just like look at all my weird men powers. I'm like you want to be jojos now?
Speaker 2:yeah everyone's, every new character's power is like seven paragraphs. I'm like you want to be jojos. Now, yeah, he definitely wants to be jojos every new character's power is like seven paragraphs.
Speaker 1:I'm like I was fine with an entire category of people of put power into fist and punch. That's what balanced the system. So the more like over elaborate. I use my syringe ring to give my nen to your nen, to activate your ability to hack into your bees, to use the magic jar to put the ghost snake on someone. I'm like. No, the guy whose ability was trading cards, rubber and changing the PNG file was the coolest guy for powers and those were. His entire power set was rubber, glue and PNG manipulation and was just a rat bastard.
Speaker 1:So I'd say Nen overcomplicated itself and I could do it better.
Speaker 2:Fair enough.
Speaker 1:How about you Power Systems? Go ahead, Talk for a bit.
Speaker 2:Well, as I mentioned at the start of the episode, I kind of got obsessed with Paranoid Mage Because, like I said, roughly 1,500 minutes over the course of two weeks Good job. Anyways, point of the matter is I really like their power system. So the power system is basically, uh, there's ambient mana all around, yeah, and you kind of passively absorb it, and when it gets absorbed, it gets imbued with whatever your aspect is and becomes viz is what they call it.
Speaker 1:Okay. Weirdly the power system in my first novel is not that far off.
Speaker 2:So then you extract strands of Viz and you form them into geometric shapes and patterns, and if you have the right shape and pattern, you can cause an effect.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's fun. I didn't do the pattern thing. I like the pattern thing.
Speaker 2:And then. So then it takes time and effort to actually form the pattern. So people make focuses, which are basically somewhat magical metal, with the pattern already carved into it, and then you just run your viz through the pattern on the focus, so you don't have to manually create the pattern yourself every time.
Speaker 1:So it seems like. Correct me if I'm wrong here. They went directly between Freerun and Fullmetal Alchemist Something like that.
Speaker 2:They don't really go into too much detail into the patterns themselves. But then the third level of magic is enchantments, which is basically the same as a focus, but instead of running your viz through the pattern, you fill it in, you inlay it with a sufficiently magic metal enchanting material and then you just supply a little bit of energy to activate the enchantment and it'll last until your energy runs out. Basically, okay, and I just it's so simple and easy to understand and yet, because the main character A something that you'd like, the main character's in his 30s, so it's like yeah, that gives a bonus point for me immediately.
Speaker 2:But since he's relatively unaware of magic and he's doing most of the stuff intuitively, and then he's trying to reverse engineer these symbols so that he can enchant his own stuff to do the stuff that he wants to do, while trying to run from the uh, the guild of arcane regulation, which is the guild that controls all magic related stuff, basically, um, I just I really enjoyed, uh, that it was like a simple and intuitive, yet robust and complex system. Right now that's pretty top tier, because I'm still kind of obsessed with the series.
Speaker 1:So one power system I haven't been able to get over because it's probably one of the best thought out systems being used in. The worst running manga right now is World.
Speaker 1:Trigger had it figured out so good. Worst running manga right now is world trigger. Had it figured out so good. You have an organ that's a cube that you can tell how much energy you have by literally the size of the cube bullets, shields and things use energy, the differential between a high energy and a low energy person's, literally how many shots it can fire, how many big of shots you can get around this by, if you have low, using different weapons that drain less and fighting more tactically.
Speaker 1:And it was just like a nearly perfect magic system, Because like, yeah, you can have more energy or less energy, but that's literally how many bullets you get and it's not unreasonable for someone to be more strategic. But they haven't used their magic system in like a hundred chapters or so. They just stopped using it but it was such a good system Cause I'm like okay, you literally tell me how many shots this guy gets, and if I had a protractor I could figure out how many bullets everyone gets. Relative is like pretty great.
Speaker 2:I also thought it was like a really funny thing where they use their, their try on to activate lots of stuff around the world, because it's just energy, you feed it and you can turn things on.
Speaker 1:So you can turn on like the security camera with it.
Speaker 2:Right, and then when Asamu just couldn't boot up his laptop because he used too much try on energy running the fridge or whatever it's like that was, that was pretty funny.
Speaker 1:You see, the thing is, the bottle episode would have been great if it was a three-episode miniseries my problem is the entirety of Kaiju. 9 happened during this arc. The entirety of it. Just to put that in perspective, they've been doing this training arc in the entire runtime of Kaiju number 8, from start to finish. That hurts me. Kaiju no 8, by the way, makes me think of the Monster Hunter magic system of sorts, where you just kill monsters and make shit out of them.
Speaker 1:Right, I don't hate, that, like the idea of kill a dragon, make a dragon outfit, is a pretty solid power system that dna inexplicably doesn't have.
Speaker 1:the idea that monster stat sheets don't have drop lists on them of what you can make out of the monster is the biggest oversight all they need to do in that new player's handbook is list and from this monster you can craft and give like four item examples and that would have made the new edition worth buying. Just that idea of hey, we made a simple system where you kill a beholder. Here's four items you can make from a beholder. Do you want a robe of many eyes? Do you want a staff? Da-da-da, that's it. Because then you gave enemies loot tables that aren't random bullshit and they're actually tied into the enemies. But, mini-rant aside, for that, the Monster Hunter power system, a lot of shows you'll use of kill things and take their stuff.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:Oh, and if you want a series that gave up on its power system halfway through Gundam seed, having batteries on their mobile suits until it's like nah change your mind, I'm like what. It was so strategic that you could only fight for so long and then your battery ran out, so you had to like be strategic with it and, like nah, we changed your mind. That was annoying to write.
Speaker 2:We had we had nuclear jammers and then we did, did the end, jammer, jammer canceler yeah the end jammer canceler.
Speaker 1:They did just give up.
Speaker 1:Well, it's like, it's funny when things just give up. Like Soul Eater, for example's power system is like you have soul wavelengths Each person and their weapon have a soul and then they bounce back and forth to make the weapon stronger and then it's like once they established that they didn't really do anything with it, like there wasn't any real noticeable growth. Like there had been power spikes here and there, but it really wasn't like a consistent power system. Like witches get magic. They get magic, they just have it. Magic is a thing. So, to loop back on power systems representing character, the worst power system with the best narrative implications is Bleach.
Speaker 1:So Bleach is like you think, so. So here's what I hate about.
Speaker 2:Bleach. I'll start with the best narrative implications is Bleach.
Speaker 1:So Bleach is like you think so. So here's what I hate about Bleach. I'll start with the bad Characters have spiritual pressure, which is how much energy they emit, and they have like a spiritual amount which I don't know if they ever had a word for it. So it's like you have your amount and then you have your pressure that you run that amount, like okay, okay, you got, okay, okay, you got gasoline you got pipe like water pressure I can see how that kind of works.
Speaker 1:And then, like, you have a sword, okay, and then the sword is sentient and you have an inner world and your inner world determines what your sword does like for a character writing perspective. Being able to, like, go into their soul, talk to their weapon and have that tie into their personality and how they fight, is a narrative goldmine they never really explore.
Speaker 1:Because, it's like each character's weapon's sentient, like Soul Eater, but they don't really have character arcs with their weapons or do anything really with it. So it's like we go into Ichigo and be like, yeah, I'm gonna fight evil Ichigo with my sword, so my sword will respect me, so I get a better sword. I'm like that sounds cool, why does your sword shoot lasers, cuz? And then it's like they also ruined it by being like, oh also, ichigo is the perfect, most special boy who has the highest power level and beat up a captain character 10 episodes in. And I'm like you guys, the power level part ruined it if everyone had a sword.
Speaker 1:And it came down to like how strategic they use their swords ability which would be sick, like it was like yeah, I have an ice sword, so like there's that one scene where it's like I lost the power of my ice sword, so instead I create layers of air between my ice to vacuum, seal the ice, to make it dense, and I'm like that'd be really cool in a show where the but good job being strategic, because it's like if you did like the power matchup of different swords just being good or bad against different people, but it always turned into a whose power level was higher.
Speaker 1:Fight that's true with almost no exceptions, where it's like, yeah, I'm fighting my captain, I'm better than use cherry blossoms instead of going. My sword to defeat you is high speed so I can dodge your cherry blossoms and hit you, and this was a deliberate choice I made, that I unlocked a speed sword to fight your sword sword, and it's infinite swords. That'd be narrative, especially if it tied into your power are these cherry blossoms? Because you're distant and you don't get your hands dirty and you're cold and uncalculating and my sword is running fast and hits you because I'm an aggressive person.
Speaker 1:So my advantage on you in this fight is directly tied into how my sword works. My personality gave me the sword. Therefore, I have a tactical edge against you. Right, right, really good potential. That exists in fanfics, but not in the actual show as written. They never dealt with Aizen's illusion, by the way.
Speaker 2:They just said it doesn't work on.
Speaker 1:Ichigo because reasons, and then he stopped using it.
Speaker 2:Hmm, yeah.
Speaker 1:They looked like they were going to. They had a guy be like hey, aizen, you can hypnotize me, but I flipped everything upside down. I'm like, okay, that's compelling.
Speaker 2:Oh, and he's dead yeah.
Speaker 1:Like a weirdly good countermeasure to someone illusioning you is you illusion them so they don't know if they're illusioning you correctly. I'm like oh, that makes great thematic.
Speaker 2:Oh, he's gone, or like I have to stab somebody twice and never set somebody up to be stabbed twice.
Speaker 2:Ugh, so cool, so wasted so I think it comes back to the degrees of specificity, as you were saying, because the more specific you get about a power system, I mean it's more interesting the ways that you work around the power system that you've made, but it also kind of locks in as an author, it locks you into a specific train of thought and then you end up with those sorts of inconsistencies where if you just like One Piece doesn't really have a power system.
Speaker 1:I mean it does Three power systems. They're very specific. No, no, I'm going to rant about One Piece's power system. You did this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:So the first power system is devil fruits. There's three types of devil fruits and they rock paper scissors each other. Specifically, there's the one where you turn into stuff, the one where you manipulate stuff outside your body. And the one where you turn into an animal. Animal loses to element completely.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Animal beats, turn stuff into things and turn stuff into things beats element. So like rubber beat lightning. Lightning beats element. So like rubber beat lightning, lightning beat cow, cow beat rubber. But then they have their second power system of hockey where it's like, yeah, each person has a mystery amount to this hockey and you can use it to either enhance things, see things or hit things and then, by enhancing things and mixing with your powers, you can like reverse that previously existing type triangle and that one you learn through literally training and perfecting it, and that one's the best system is the one that you train to allow the non-special powered characters to have an advantage.
Speaker 1:It's like at low levels having a superpower gives you advantage. At high levels, the training's power is actually the better of the powers. And then to unlock the second stage of your Rock Paper Scissors power, you have to train the appropriate matching hockey power to then get your awakened power. So if you train the hockey, you can then use your Say, your power was to make string. If you train your hockey, you can then, instead of being made of string, turn other things into string and manipulate the other string. Or if you turn into a giraffe in Perfect Hockey, you can then dropkick the guy made of fire and hurt them because you're an elementally enhanced giraffe.
Speaker 1:So it's like their system's weird and their power level is literally your bounty, but not really, because it's just the government estimating how dangerous you are. So sometimes it matches up and other times it doesn't. But One Piece is like if your bounty is appropriate to someone else's bounty, you'll probably have a good fight.
Speaker 2:But the system kind of offers like JoJo's Bizarre Adventure is another option too, too. Another example, too, of systems where there is a power system. It is vaguely explained or, in one piece's case, fairly specifically explained, but it's still so like open and loose, and it's like whatever comes to their mind, they, they can, they can be like, ah, and this person has this bizarre power.
Speaker 1:Now well, it's interesting for one piece is I do think their like hockey power scaling system was worse. I did more enjoy just random matchups of weird ass powers, of a person's powers Like oh, as long as I don't have a panic attack, I turn people into wooden puppets and then being lost because the dude hits him with a chili pepper.
Speaker 1:Or my favorite interaction in One Piece, the person who had ghosts that make you depressed, that lost to the character whose self-esteem couldn't fall any lower okay so it's like this ghost hit you and made you feel bad about yourself, and usopp was immune because he couldn't feel worse about himself, so he just beat her up. But one piece is also a gag manga right, like it didn't do the thing where it tried to go too serious, even when it's trying to be serious, it's really not, but they did the chosen one. Bullshit I am so mad when it turned out, luffy's fruit wasn't the rubber fruit, it was the sun god fruit, fuck off sun god fruit.
Speaker 2:I thought it was like the life life fruit or something it was it roughly translates to being like the sun.
Speaker 1:God, nika fruit yeah, okay stupid and I hate it.
Speaker 2:I hate and then don't, don't, don't, don't each of the fruits also have like tears of how effective they are, or something it's a whole thing.
Speaker 1:I'm still mad at it. It's just like it's less interesting to be like he's the second coming of jesus. It's just less interesting than he's some punk with rubber powers like I want. Yeah like.
Speaker 2:like I said, that's one of the things that I liked about paranoid mage, which is why the comment about why didn't we learn what their heritage was stood out to me. It's because he's just some punk that wants to be left alone and the magic society is like no, it's too dangerous to leave you alone, because you could do anything.
Speaker 1:You know, I had a really good power system but just forgot to write characters we gave a single shit about. Was Siren? Because I like to start with this like we're going to do this time-hopping post-apocalyptic story and then they just kind of like halfway through it's like actually this is about espers and still kind of time-hopping. What was with all this game bullshit? Eh, don't worry about it. And I'm like so you read Gantz and then you gave up on that part almost immediately.
Speaker 1:It was the weirdest thing, because it's like you're reading and you're like I see exactly where halfway through they had a better idea for a series and let that take over and it had like a massive quality spike. When it's like, yeah, I saved these orphan kids in the past and went back to the future and they were badasses, I'm like why was this not your show? This is such a better idea. Ugh, such a better idea, such a better idea. But that one had a pretty good system, but another one that was an interesting system was Legend of Legendary Heroes, where it's like each country has its own state secret magic and his big thing was plagiarism.
Speaker 2:Where it's like, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:I can just see your magic. So naruto's power system was really good, shippuden's power system got a little worse and boruto's power system sucks okay, uh, well, I mean we probably should get close to wrapping this up, um never.
Speaker 1:But I get a complaint that the sharingan does not give you more chakra and they forgot that there is no reason sasuke should have had the same not give you more chakra and they forgot that there is no reason Sasuke should have had the same power level as Naruto and they could have fixed it because they had another half of a fox. They just could have given him Fixing it forever, sitting right there. The solution was so obvious.
Speaker 2:But so what is your favorite power system?
Speaker 1:Tough call. So first I I'm gonna say a hot take. If naruto didn't have the fox in him, naruto probably would have had my favorite power system, so I didn't like that. By just simply virtue of having the fox, that when he wasn't using it he just had a higher power level and could make hundreds of clones.
Speaker 1:Naruto would have been really good if he could have only made three clones the entire time and had the same relative power level as Sasuke. Like a bit more raw energy. But like him, making a million clones was always less interesting than him making two cleverly.
Speaker 2:Fair enough.
Speaker 1:But early Naruto was a truly good power system. We had elemental rock paper scissors. We had techniques with firm limitations of how often you could use them. We had a mix of hand-to-hand and special abilities and almost all the fights were shenanigan-based that we knew the rules in advance, Like we watched Shikamaru the first time he fights Bell Person who throws needles with bells to fuck with your equilibrium and slams her head into a wall. So when he has a second fight and he runs the shadow through the tunnel to slam her head into a wall, we're like oh damn, we knew that. Where it's like naruto, the difference between naruto and jojos is naruto's random bullshit is never only belonging to one character because they learned it from someone or it's a twist of someone else's power. So it's like this is my and they only ever gave characters like two powers, maybe three of their right spicy.
Speaker 1:So it's like, yeah, no shadow position guy later gets throw a shadow knife at you and later gets basic stone wall thing. So it's like their abilities were reasonably scaled, like Naruto only learned like four attacks, that's true. He learned make clones, turn into things and hit with spinny death ball. And I think that was good writing, because you watch him like figure out how to, like keep adding slowly pieces to his collection and he's like, oh, this is my Jesus lion that can give 100,000 people infinite power. I'm like man, I just wish he didn't have the fucking lion. I wish they just hated him because he was a war criminal or something. The fox was the worst part of the series Because then it went to the bully the superpowered kid instead of bully the lame kid. I liked it much better as the lame kid whose strength came from being the awkward, weird kid. So if I were to just top three power systems, it would be first place World Trigger, second place probably Naruto or Siren. They're very similar systems, ironically, fair enough.
Speaker 2:And third very similar systems. Ironically, Fair enough.
Speaker 1:And third place.
Speaker 2:Probably Kenichi. I was going to say he already said Kenichi was probably third place.
Speaker 1:Where it's just like, yeah, martial arts with just enough of a twist, where they're starting to learn Street Fighter moves. How about you?
Speaker 1:Well, like I said, number one, I just I really, really liked Paranoid Mage, but now I really got to think because, like you know, I Well, it's funny because I'm like I'm putting Naruto and World Trigger up here and not putting Fullmetal Alchemist in first place, and it's ironic because it's like no, fullmetal Alchemist is objectively like the best anime and like Free Rin is giving it a run for its money for being a really good anime. That ties everything nicely together. But I really like that wiggle space of being able to side stories and fanfic things like a lot.
Speaker 1:I think I'm going to adjust my ranking, though If I'm being honest, first place is probably Naruto. It's that nice sweet spot between people have measured power levels that were relatively similar. They're restricted in how many times they can do their bullshit, but there's enough room to be like oh, if you mix fire and lightning together, it makes piercing scorch blast. I'm like, okay, that's awesome. Like especially the fights where they remembered to care about that, where they're like okay, wind is good against lightning, so I'll hit you with my spinny death ball. It's good. It was good. Like every fight had a ton of creativity and variety where a character could pull their spine out and beat you with it, but it didn't feel like it broke immersion.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I think we're going to go Naruto for my personal first place, not Boruto, I forgot how it worked Right Second place. I'm still going to go like that, probably Fullmetal Alchemist, third Kenichi and fourth World Trigger, which is a shame, because World Trigger would be really high up if they remembered to use it. Also, some of the bad guys just got random bullshit black triggers that do random bullshit things which didn't really fit the established aesthetic at all.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, you know now that you're mentioning World Tr, though um, I, uh, I do rather enjoy that power system abstractly, uh, because, like you say, the the series seems to be forgetting series, like when they used it it was really good, the invasion, even the tournaments like, okay, use these tournaments to show what our characters can do.
Speaker 1:So when an invasion happens we're like, oh yeah, sniper got you with the lead bullet. They kind of did it in reverse. They showed us the big invasion and then in the tournament, explained what people were actually doing.
Speaker 2:Actually I'm going to revise this Number one still Paranoid Mage, just because I'm obsessed. But number two Kagura Bachi. I am really enjoying the power system there. It's not very well explained yet, but so it seems to be Bleach but cooler.
Speaker 1:You know, how I gave that rant that the swords in Bleach are a really cool idea, but they don't really pay off the whole sword personality. Going on, we'll see how. Kagura Banshee goes.
Speaker 2:But we do agree that swords can just be a power system. Cool swords and wizards, it's in their best interest to have it explain shit.
Speaker 1:No one in Kagura Banshee has said the phrase. He's stronger because of his power level, and that's where it beats out Bleach, because Bleach's problem is characters will be like. I have more spiritual questions in you and in Kagura Banshee I'm going to cut off your fingers with a quick draw and I will always prefer a character being more of a badass than being more of a chosen one from God.
Speaker 2:I think third place, um, mostly because the series is just absolutely bonkers and super cool, but I think third place, uh, chainsaw man.
Speaker 1:I think I like chainsaw man, where, where you like, uh, make packs with devils or you can even exchange body parts to be able to turn into them so chainsaw man is the best, best example of powers being directly tied into characters, personalities, where it's like oh, the psychopath control feek made a cat was the control devil. Oh, like the metaphor is so many kinds of not subtle, it's actually beautiful, like the only way it could be on them. No, is if denji had the romantic rejection devil. Like the war devil is literally a character who's constantly fighting with themselves about every decision. Like that's so good, they killed the eternity devil by using their like instincts and pure savagery, because using logic doesn't defeat eternity. Like, oh, chef's kiss yeah it's just a chance.
Speaker 1:A man's weird though it's like. I think my only reason I wouldn't rate that system higher is his power. Scaling is a whack, because it meant like the more afraid you are of the devil, the stronger it is. I'm like okay but you also just do what you want, though. Like the chainsaw, devil is the least consistent part of chainsaw man, it shouldn't do the things it does.
Speaker 2:Just spawn chainsaws out of him.
Speaker 1:No, that part makes sense. It eats devils, so they don't exist anymore. And then the concept goes with I'm waiting for them to be like actually you're the concept devil, which they'll probably do because it's well-written.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean they'll probably do something to explain why the chainsaw devil is for some reason special compared to the others.
Speaker 1:I think the thing for power systems. This is my like kind of a closing monologue-y thing for one of my hot takes about why Chainsaw man doesn't reign higher. Chainsaw Man's side characters have short shelf lives, so the only characters we really ever like see do things and not just get murdered horribly is Denji and Asta are pretty much Yoru I don't remember which one's which anymore are like the only characters that like get to keep doing things because everyone just dies horribly yeah, literally every character died at the end of season one and I'm fine with that from a storytelling point of view.
Speaker 1:But like for a power system to be really good, for me it's what it's the weird matchups that really make it work in the fringes right. We're like part of what might make alchemy lose some points is you don't see very many weird matchups in full metal alchemist. It's like each person only gets to fight like their targeted rival once or twice and that's about it. Like mustang just shows up in mercs two villains and that's like the entirety of the fights he gets so you don't really get to see him like do that whole, I do something and then build on it that often and edward we're
Speaker 1:doing that on an emotional level, like he's like okay, now that I know you're made of carbon, I'm gonna make my arm into carbon, but that's like the only times he really does that, like direct building on himself, so we don't really get to know what armstrong does or watch him do fun interactions and I'm all about the weird interactions like when the naruto fought bomb guy whose hands chew clay and spits out explosives. Man kishimoto was cooking an early shippuden. And then so gara fights bomb guy, gets his ass kicked because the bombs are made of earth and they climb in the sand and the sand doesn't help him and he gets blown the fuck up. Nasuke rolls up and proceeds to shit stomp bomb guy because lightning is strong against bomb and he can defuse the bombs. He can see the bombs, but what's fun about that theorycrafting is.
Speaker 1:Then later we get Sasuke versus Gaara and Gaara beats the shit out of Sasuke Like they full rock-paper-scissors circled. That because Sasuke's like I have one lightning punch that can go through a shield, but my fire doesn't do shit to sand, even though I have the kill you eyes. Garo will just put up a sand wall. See through his sand eye. That was established episode five, and I can't do shit to him. And that's what I love was like how the power system plays out for side Like Avatar's a good one for that too where it's like you can absolutely see, like, oh, if Aang's not here, and it's like a fight between toff and azula.
Speaker 1:You get to see them like actually fight right and see like interesting dynamics and play of it like, oh, I'm gonna hold up the sand castle but I can't see good because I'm on sand sucks to be me, but toff will also just ruin your life and punch through a steel door. So like avatars is very balanced and everyone is useful in specific use cases. And then Combustion. Guy's just blowing up your head with his mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I mean, I still am going to put Chainsaw man at number three.
Speaker 1:The narrative potential there so good.
Speaker 2:And then Kagura Bachi at number two and potential, they're so good. And then kagura bachi at number two and then paranoid mage. It's just like it. Like I say, they don't really go into too much detail about the shapes and patterns themselves, but I really like the etching your, your shape, into a focus and then filling that at that end with enchanted metal to make it an enchantment I like it, like I'm going like a little more like old school further back, like I've had to seriously debate between avatar versus naruto, where I gave the edge to naruto because it's weirder, but also the chakra means there's limitations to it.
Speaker 1:So people can't just because avatar nerds like to be like well, why won't you just pull all their blood out of their body and be like because it's on nickelodeon? And then legend of korra is like, oh, they actually did pull the air out of that person's lungs. I didn't think they go there. Huh, wow, I guess they just can pull the air out of your lungs. I lost that playground argument. But yeah, I think, like I said, I have kanichi really high up. I have naruto pretty high up. I want to have world trigger high up. I have Naruto pretty high up. I want to have World Trigger high up, but I can't and for narrative reasons I have Full Metal Alchemist really high and it would be higher. It's a hot, weird hot take about Full Metal Alchemist. If Full Metal Alchemist had more filler, its power system would be higher Because like we don't get to see enough of other people doing stuff with it.
Speaker 1:Because we, like we don't get to see enough of other people doing stuff with it because we see edward putting back together radios, making statues, punch you in the face, but we like mustang doesn't do shit and just yeah. Also, even though the alchemy system's really cool, there's no difference between ed and alphonse's alchemy styles at all, and that is a huge missed opportunity, because alchemy can just do whatever you need it to do, even though it's very integral to the plot. It's like they made Mustang a flame alchemist. I'm like, ah, I think if they leaned into that more, had more alchemists be like oh, I do this kind of thing specifically, like I'm a biologist, I'm a thermodynamicist, I'm a kinesiologist have a lot of potential. So yeah, that is my final rankings. Is Naruto first world trigger second, kenichi third and full metal alchemist in fourth place, which feels like a crime, but I have Avatar and Naruto sharing the slot, because one's just a PG-13 version of the other.
Speaker 1:That is true, alright, and that was a hefty episode, but I think it might be episode 100, so yay us, yay us Wait.
Speaker 2:does that mean, there's no random question?
Speaker 1:Uh, let's see None that are. Oh, here's one. Do you believe in love? At first sight?
Speaker 2:Do I believe in love at first sight? I have a strategic advantage, being single um, well, let's see, uh, love at first sight, it kind of also has this implication that that love is lasting, um which I I do believe people can fall in love at first sight, uh, but maintaining love takes time and effort. Um, so I would say yes with an asterisk where, uh, that kind of love that you feel at first sight is probably going to fade very quickly, especially if you don't put in the time and effort to keep it aflame.
Speaker 1:All right. So for me, I believe in love in first conversation. So first sight is like first sight is oh, do I like a physical attraction. It's a thing. I'm not going to go too deep into it on this podcast and get myself canceled, but I can tell if, in like a minute, if our banter is good, if our conversation is good, if our tempo is good, if they have things of value coming out of their mouth.
Speaker 2:If I have things of value coming out of my mouth to them.
Speaker 1:I'm looking for someone to go for long walks and travel the world. I'm like, not me. You pick something very generic and I am bad at that. I am not the person you bring with you to Cairo to look at the majesty of the pyramids. That is not me. I'm the guy with complex thoughts about combining elemental chakras, and if you're not prepared to have that conversation, you're done.
Speaker 2:Okay, a little side story. Someone sent me up on a blind date once and I asked my date. I like to ask random questions.
Speaker 1:That's why there's a section for it in our show.
Speaker 2:So I asked my date if she was attacked by a jello monster and she managed to defeat said jello monster, would she eat it? And she looksello monster and she managed to defeat said jello monster, would she eat it? Right, and she looks at me and she she looks at me and she says what's a jello monster? And then I it's a monster made of a jello.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like, like that break me too. It really would, cause it's like I got to wonder, like when I talk freely, if sometimes people just hear like a high-pitched buzzing sound or like what company for our department has changed based on budget and the school pricing? And we really need to show that, not that we're coming, that we're here, we have an established presence, and we do that by focusing back on our fundamental research principles but, more importantly, sharing them with people so we can be seen present and active. And I feel like the person I was talking to is like yeah, that makes sense. Other person's talking to you. Yeah, it makes sense. Third person in the room his eyes are glazed over, being like I heard narrative structure and brand identity and then I went into a coma well, yeah, you kind of did just wrap around the same central point like four times yeah, in four different ways.
Speaker 1:Try and keep up. The takeaway is we need to be out there showing people that our research exists, by demoing it on those people, rather than saying we have research to show you.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But long story short. Yeah, I definitely believe in love at first conversation. Definitely not at first sight, though, because, oh man, have I dated some questionable people on that principle, though?
Speaker 2:because, oh man have I dated some questionable people on that principle. Well, yeah, I mean, I guess at first sight the phrasing I always kind of assume like first yeah, that it's like you know, um, you bump into someone a meet cute.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like a little bit, first meet cute because I definitely believe that's a Now, whether or not you can maintain that is a far more complex story involving many, many factors.
Speaker 2:No, exactly.
Speaker 1:I think that's it for this episode, because I really wanted to talk about power systems.
Speaker 1:It's like it's so funny because it's like I always loop back to Naruto and Bleach because they're such staples of the genre, Because if I talk about Naruto, I'm also talking about JJK and the Dark Trio and Shaman King. To a certain extent, I talk about these Naruto and Bleach because that's pretty much like they're two main ways you define your power systems of. Is it cool, based on your personality, like my Hero Academia, or is it structured and based on your logic, like nothing currently running in Show and Jump, unfortunately, I mean Paranoid Maze is already a Webtoon picked up by Webtoon.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm going to give that a read Because, like, oh yeah, I'm invested in this glyph-based magic system. One of my favorite power systems that didn't come up in this episode is I love where in Fire Emblem you're a wizard because you just have a book and then when you use up the book, you don't have a book because magic's not innate. And I'm like, yeah, okay, that makes your magic system fair. Your fire has ammo because the pages burn when you use it and dude has a sword to stab you and your a sword to stab you and your fireball is about as good as a rocket launcher, but you have to sit there and read the rocket launcher, read the instructions and by the time you've done that, it's reasonable that someone just ran up and stabbed you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's all about the levels of precision and how you use it for storytelling. And Dragon Balls is bad, cannot stress that enough. Definitely, dragon Ball, dima Oof and dragon balls is bad, cannot stress that enough.
Speaker 2:Dragon ball, daima, dragon balls power system was never meant to be good yeah, it's just when the whole thing is, when the whole series is based on scaling someone back, but you never knew how strong they were in the first place.
Speaker 1:Right, or at least like seven deadly sins had the decency for their numbers to mean something, cause it was like this character is this strong, he made a crater, and then we get all right. We're literally measuring people based on how big of a Meliodas crater they make. My brain can at least comprehend this.
Speaker 1:And then they're like, yeah, this is Eskenor. We said Meliodas is 800,000. Why would we say that? Because at noon he has 1 billion. I'm like, oh, meliodas is fucked, huh. And then he was and I'm like, all right, well played show, I can allow this. But then the third quarter of that just became people trying to raise their arbitrary number and I'm like numbers need to be relative or just don't have numbers. It's like the Kenichi thing where it's like they didn't have numbers you all know it was world trigger where there's like, if there's 10 awesome moves and all 10 jump, me two would survive. And I'm like, okay, brain can follow that. That's how shitty he is understood.
Speaker 1:uh but, yeah, thank you everyone for tuning in. Something, something, something I don't know eat candy. I'm not a doctor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely not a doctor, but I mean, sometimes you got to eat candy as a form of self-care.
Speaker 1:I mean, I have a bag of discount Jolly Rancher gummies not a sponsor on my desk and I'm planning to eat the shit out of those. After this episode it's going to be great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know know, just the normal self-care buy stuff that you like.
Speaker 1:Hopefully it's Vlad's book. Perfect plug, 10 out of 10. It's so hard to plug my old book when I spent all day working on my new one being like, oh man, this is so good. Oh no, they're gonna read my other thing, but it's pretty good, I guess what we end up rating. I remember one time I'm like give me a manga rating. I think you gave me like a thousand year Blood War, bleach rating.
Speaker 2:I'm like okay, so it's like it was something very male.
Speaker 1:No, I think it was Siren. You gave me a Siren out of ten.
Speaker 2:I'm like it's pretty good. That's something I might say it's pretty good.
Speaker 1:I mean, it kind of jumped around a bunch and sort of just ended, but it was pretty good. Well, you know eagerly part three Bye, Someday I'll write part three after I stealth update part two, Like I'm literally just going to hire a copy editor to stealth update the manuscript when no one's looking. It'll be great.
