Deep Space and Dragons
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Deep Space and Dragons
Episode 99: Dragon Ball Daima we stan Majin Kuu in this household.
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Enjoy a delightful blend of humor and insightful conversation as we tackle the absurdities of life—from office furniture mishaps to exciting gaming adventures. Richard and C(K)arl share their journeys through laughter, food, and animated critique.
- Table troubles: hilarious desk furniture debacle
- Grad school excitement mixed with chaotic cooking experiences
- A fun dive into the chaotic world of Dragon Ball Daima
- Many references and the importance of character arcs in storytelling
- Wild inventions and spirit dolphins.
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Intro: The Cosmic Comedy Experience
Speaker 1Hello across space-time and possibly in the Demon Realm. I'm Richard, the star of Deep Space and Dragons.
Speaker 2And I am Carl, the Cosmos that we explore so deeply.
Speaker 1That's actually pretty good. So before we get too deep into today's episode, what's new in the Carlverse, Unless it's a fully unrelated movie review of Scream 3, then no.
Speaker 2Well see, unfortunately. Well, actually, no. Okay. So my boss, he decided he needs new desk furniture. So my boss.
Speaker 2He decided he needs new desk furniture. Yeah well, so I mean that's you would think that's not really my new office furniture, not new desk furniture. He wanted a new desk. He had a really old desk. He'd had it for years and so we like lug it out of the office and we load it up onto his truck and he takes it to the thrift store. And they didn't want it. So he had to bring it out of the office and we load it up onto his truck and he takes it to the thrift store, and they didn't want it. So we had to bring it back to the store. And then I had to, like he man, flip it out of the truck so it would like smash into pieces. And one of the other workers came in with a crowbar and just going all office space on this old desk so we could get into small enough chunks to throw in a garbage can.
Speaker 1So back when I worked at I'm just going to name drop the keg, they're not rehiring me anytime soon we had to destroy an old wooden door.
Speaker 1So we ended up going to the hardware store that was in the same block and buying a saw and a machete. Oh, so we were able to like Hardcore. Yeah, we macheted the store to death and then had to hand in our receipt to be reimbursed for the machete we bought to machete the store in half. It was a fantastic use of resources for your trained cook. So I weirdly approve of this uncharacteristically. I'm like you gotta smash some furniture. You gotta smash some furniture.
Speaker 2But so then for like a week he didn't have a desk, and so whenever I had to do any actual office work because as a manager I sometimes have to do that kind of stuff- I had to sit on the floor to use the. No, I mean mostly I used the computer to work on immigration stuff, because I mean now Canada has drastically reduced the number of people they want to immigrate, but there's lots of people who need jobs from foreign countries.
Speaker 1I mean going into for those listening right now, just to date this for future archaeologists. We're sitting in March of 2025. I don't really feel like I normally should date it because we're timeless artwork and dating. It may lose some value of the episode, but just for context, just Google Canada, United States immigration, March 2025, and see what you see. That's it, Because in like five years you'll be like oh, this was a wild, wild week.
Speaker 2But yeah. So it's like for a week I had to sit on the floor to use the computer and then finally today the furniture company came in and they built this desk in his office Just buying a desk and I spent most of my day putting everything back together to get it back to being a functioning office again.
Speaker 1Well, as long as it wasn't. Actually, I was about to get political again. No, I'm just good at this. No, this is a Canadian podcast. Buy Canadian goods if you can. Whoever you are listening, as I just lost all of my subscribers.
Speaker 2What's new with you there, Richard?
Speaker 1So last week was reading week, which normally I'm like I'm going to write an entire book or do something heroic, but like after I got my acceptance into grad school, I'm like, or I can play Monster Sanctuary, lie on the couch, watch my Adventures of Superman and just not burn myself out for a week. So I did that and I'm pretty happy with myself.
Speaker 2That does sound pretty delightful.
Speaker 1Yeah. So I pretty much just chilled for a week, like I did get some work on my novel done when I kind of had to like take apart all the chapters and restructure them and move some of the things around for it to make a better story arc, and it's one of those moments where you're like I'm going to revise my book.
Speaker 1Did you write any words or do any edits? No, but I read my entire book and basically it turned into a bunch of posts and it was a scatter around conspiracy cork board. That counts as work.
Speaker 2With little strings, two different events and everything Kind of.
Speaker 1It's a digital version of that. I think I showed you the mirror boards before.
Speaker 2Oh, I think you have.
What's New in the Carlverse
Speaker 1Yeah, basically that it was a series of post-it notes. I regret nothing. And then I guess another new thing with me is like I've gotten into making slow cooker tacos, where I dice up all my ingredients and throw them in the slow cooker with taco spice, so I can then have tacos waiting for me.
Speaker 1Oh, and my coffee maker broke and I wrote a sad poem for it that I sent to some contacts, because I don't know if I've ever been more heartbroken than my coffee maker breaking Seven years, two to three pots of coffee a day. This machine, it made sense. It died of old age, it died of overwork. But I was also 20 bucks seven years ago and a new one cost me 20 bucks. With my current budget being able to just buy a new coffee, yeah, 20 bucks, that's an amount of money.
Speaker 2I actually have, that's pretty good.
Speaker 1See like there's lots of fancy coffee machines, but like really the one that has like two buttons that are like brew coffee and brew coffee later, and maybe a blinky clock. That's it, I don't need no fancy-ass espresso bar. Yet you can make me eat my words on episode 200, where I'm gloating about my fancy new espresso machine, because, given the means, and opportunity and space. Me having a needlessly elaborate coffee setup isn't inevitability, but that'll be after my master's program is done, which I think I've decided, which one I Actually.
Speaker 1You know what would be amazing, like legitimately, if I got a comms job at at like Nescafe and just got like one of those sick like because one time when I had my ramen packet gaming company going for a while when we were experimenting making TTRPG stuff, I actually got like a message from Nescafe being like does your office need one of our $2,000 coffee machines? I'm like I appreciate that I look like a big enough deal. You try and sell me this. Like I felt special to be like. I also got a free Stella Vieratos engraved mug a while back because they're like your company should get these mugs for Christmas. Would you like a free sample of one? I'm like sure should get these mugs for Christmas, would you?
Speaker 1like a free sample of one. I'm like sure I'm not going to say no to free swag. And also for the record, now, when I do successfully have a publishing house someday, I probably will buy their mugs, because I'll be like. I remember that time they gave me a free mug. That was cool. Everyone loves a good engraved mug, especially if you're sassy with it, like if you got like Carl. But there's like a C and it was slashed out and then a K was there. You'd enjoy that mug.
Speaker 2I would enjoy that mug and I've definitely seen that so many times, where people put the C and then they just have to add the extra line and it looks like a disfigured K.
Speaker 1And I guess the last not really new with me, more like thing I haven't told you about yet. So they're putting out a new Gundam miniatures game where they make mini Gunpla to assemble and play on a grid game. Okay, so they make like one inch. They're not SDs, they're like one inch tall Gundams and ships. They battle on a grid to hack so you assemble your Gunpla, paint them and then play Warhammer with them on this grid, price pending. That's really cool and you know it.
Speaker 2Yeah, that does sound pretty cool.
Speaker 1Because I like building Gunpla but I don't quite have the energy to do anything other than a SD one, just due to, like energy constraints and time constraints. But it's like, oh, it's about that complicated, like they're not poseable because like they're just kind of in action poses to like work as miniatures. But they are like the little runner things you assemble like that's awesome also.
Speaker 1It lets them like put the runners it lets them put the runners in booster packs if they want, which is really funny to me. I don't know if they're going to distribute it that way, but I do think it'd be funny to buy booster packs of model kits.
Speaker 2Wait, these are like actual gunplas, not like digital.
Speaker 1Yeah, it's a physical gunpla that makes a one-inch tall model kit you build to play Warhammer with them. Huh, that's sick and you know it.
Speaker 2That does sound sick.
Speaker 1They said the army size is closer to like 5, or it's like 5 v 5 at like most, because it's like, yeah, no, most Gundam fights despite them like showing a lot of enemies offscreen. Really aren't that many dudes that are fighting and I'm like I can't afford a Warhammer army nor do I have the motivation to but five Gundams price pending. Yeah, that seems like a great grad gift for myself, along with paying back loans, oh.
Speaker 2I guess the last thing with me is.
Speaker 1It was one of my friends' birthdays over the weekend, so we had like a all-you-can-eat sushi video game party. We go for all-you-can-eat sushi. One of my friends brought a VR headset that we were streaming to a TV to watch people beat sabers and get attacked by monsters and things. And then we played Mario Kart and Mario Party. We only played the co-op Mario Party like the rafting minigame, and then Mario Kart I just absolutely dominated, which is out of character for me.
Speaker 1I just remember Carl's advice of find the mathematically shortest path. Pick average standard kart shortest path.
Speaker 2Pick average standard cart. Yeah, and see. The thing about Mario Kart is that, unlike real life, you don't actually have to worry about traction and thus you can just take the physically shortest path, which is the inside of the curve. It's like the ideal line is actually just the ideal line.
Speaker 1But more importantly, importantly, the dirty look I got from cassie when I said well, according to carl mario kart expert, you drive the shortest path. It's like I like finish the lap, pick up a bowl of chips, eat one and then give this explanation about how to play mario kart to a person who has absolutely beaten me many times at. Mario kart was just such a moment that's pretty funny.
Speaker 1Well, it's funny like I was talking to one of my friends who'll be redacted for this podcast, being like I'm worried that you and cassie hold your punches when you played board games with me. I'm like you do not understand who I am as a person. There's no version of reality where I let someone win a board game, if I can help it, and Cassie is worse.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Oh yeah, like. Could you imagine a situation where I let you win a game willingly?
Speaker 2Oh no, that just doesn't happen. I mean, I win, but that doesn't not because you tried to let me win.
Office Furniture Fiascos & Desk Drama
Speaker 1No, instead, like I'll be like, hmm, I don't know, it's three games in a row. I should probably let Kara win. He might just not play this anymore. Then I have a flashback being punched in the face in a bouncy castle and then suddenly it's all gone. Like I aspire to be Seto Kaiba and it's not a set. Seto Kaiba climbs on the side of a cliff and says you're a tackle off the off the cliff. You better be prepared to kill me. And that is the correct gaming attitude. I'd say like I wasn't playing a one-player monster platformer, just dense vibing with myself this week because it's like I'm so hardcore and play such non-hardcore games and oh one last new with me, even though it's not really about me.
Speaker 1Did you watch and play such non-hardcore games? Hmm and oh, one last new with me, even though it's not really about me.
Speaker 2Did you watch the Pokemon Direct? Yet I didn't watch the Pokemon Direct, but I did watch the Pokemon AZ trailer, the Legends AZ and the Pokemon Champions trailer, which didn't give any details about what Pokemon champions actually was.
Speaker 1I assume they just bought Pokemon showdown Cause it'd be funny.
Speaker 2That would be pretty funny.
Speaker 1And I just want to be like not really new with me, but people have such strong opinions on total doll check, read it and Tepeg. One or two things happen. People either hate that Tepeg's there or they spite-pick Tepig because people hate that Tepig's there.
Speaker 2Why is Tepig there?
Speaker 1Because Cyndaquil got cancelled.
Speaker 2But what'd Cyndaquil do?
Speaker 1Apparently, typhlosion learned lowly hiking women into the mountains in a leak about a cancelled Pokedex entry. Oh, okay, okay, just to tell that anecdote that when they had that Massapoco leak, that's like. It's like, yeah, no, typhlosion's a predator and got cancelled and then he's not in the next game. It's just really funny, like he's not actually in it because he was one of the starters in Arceus.
Speaker 1But it's so much funnier to think he got canceled because his internet history got leaked and cancel culture got to him. It's just funnier. Slash. Partly true, but that's enough of the preamble, I think so. Dragon Ball Daima. I'm going to start off with a blanket statement Dragon Ball Daima is probably the third or second best Dragon Ball series. Huh, unless we count Sand Land, which drops into place my actual favorite Dragon Ball series, specifically the first 12 episodes of Sand Land.
Speaker 2Oh okay, Is Sand Land still being released? Nah, they released it. Two seasons, 12 episodes thatland. Oh okay, Is Sandland still being released.
Speaker 1No, they released it two seasons, 12 episodes. That was the straight-up manga and then 12 episodes.
Speaker 2that was like a sequel.
Speaker 1Ah, okay, and though kind of like a sequel. One wasn't as good, it wasn't bad, but it wasn't as good.
Speaker 2Right, right which is they're like by not being worse they kind of get bonus points honestly, because it wasn't going to be better, Okay, well, so then, what are the two Dragon Ball series that rank above Daima?
Speaker 1Dragon Ball.
Speaker 2Obviously.
Speaker 1And Dragon Ball, so in my own internal naming I've been calling it like Z1 and Z2. I kind of wish the Boo saga was just called Dragon Ball Kai, even though that's not what that means, because they're such separate shows. So I have Dragon Ball and a Dragon Ball Z up until the end of the Cell games above it yeah, yeah, okay, because I think we've mentioned this a couple times on the podcast.
Speaker 2But the end of the Cell Saga was a really nice ending to the series in general, because he handed the torch on to the next generation to be the protector of Earth, and then they just kind of undid that for the Boo Saga and the Boo Saga also definitely suffers from anime pacing more than it like.
Speaker 1If you read the Boou saga, you don't have 20 episodes. Buu himself they like to say that One Piece has the longest fight scene in anime, but that's because you're not counting Buu and his transformations as one fight, which would literally just be like 100 episodes of TV. Was just fighting Buu, if not more? Well, think about it. All they did was just fighting Boo, if not more. Well, think about it All they did was fight Boo. That was all that Boo saga was after Bobbidi got decapiturated. It was basically. Segunagate OG.
Speaker 2So, king Dabura, though he had spit that could turn people to stone right.
Speaker 1Yes.
Speaker 2Yeah, just double-checking. But so basically what you're saying is that you think that original Dragon Ball, which also my favorite, and then Dragon Ball Z up to the end of the Cell Saga, you would rate those higher than Daima, but you would rate Daima higher than.
Speaker 1Then the Boo Saga it's based on ironically, because next on my list would be the Boo Saga, then it would be Super then it would be. I guess I have to put GT on the list, sure.
Speaker 2Yeah, okay, but so like why do you dislike GT so much?
Speaker 1So when's the last time you went through GT?
Speaker 2Oh, not recently, that's true.
Speaker 1So GT isn't actually as long as you think it is. It's like 50 episodes or something.
Speaker 2Yeah, there's only like two seasons. They go into space, they come back, they meet, they deal with Baby and then then the Dragon Balls break and release the evil dragons.
Speaker 1So the main problem I have with GT is it forgot that it had characters. So the only character who does anything in GT is Kid Goku. Objectively the worst character who does anything in gt is kid goku okay objectively the worst character to have do anything, because he's the only one who got nerfed.
Speaker 1So the baby saga gt is actually really interesting if I broke all like my zbz ratings into sagas, baby saga would like go weirdly high on the list because, ah, evil alien that's an enemy of the saiyans going around and body jacking his way up to create baby Vegeta. Like, yeah sure, there's no original ideas in this, they're just setting up Goku versus Vegeta.
Speaker 1But that was an interesting setup and payoff it also gave a narrative reason for Goku to be the main character of that arc, because no one else was there so Super. Saiyan 4 is a literal ass pull. They use tweezers to pull his tail out. They literally pull it out of his ass, which is kind of funny when you think about it. But the most egregious thing gt does other than a brutal character assassination of goku, is they put in trunks and make him a boring straight man.
Speaker 1Instead of either kid trunks, who's a sassy little bastard, or future trunks, who is a traumatized orichalord, he goes super saiyan to lift some rocks and that's his extent of impact on the show and Pan does nothing.
Speaker 2No, no, no, Pan does stuff. Mostly get captured so that Goku can rescue her.
Speaker 1Do we have a non-sexist reason for why the kid that was shown to be stronger than Uub during the Kids Martial Arts Tournament that literally the strongest child of the series just became a damsel in distress every week, including being turned into a literal doll by a villain and then fed to a munch control? But that's not why I hate GT. Why I hate GT is actually distilled down to a line in the Shadow Dragon arc. Okay.
Speaker 1The character says and it was Fire Shenron Goku, we need a fight. And then he goes I don't want to fight you, huh. So Goku fights all seven of the Shadow Dragons.
Speaker 2Right.
Speaker 1And doesn't want to fight anybody. Everyone is alive and functional in the show and they send kid goku to go fight each dragon one at a time, power ranger style. Why would you not use any of your cast? Why didn't you have like veget go fight one and Uub go fight one, for example? So like they just forgot. And also, I hate GT because it doesn't work as a standalone show. It's like you're expected to have watched all of Dragon Ball Z but they're not willing to use anything from Dragon Ball Z. It's weird. It's like we're gonna steal Android Super 17 for some reason, but we're then only going to have Goku matter in this plot arc.
Speaker 1So it's like, yeah, we're going to have Android 18 and 17 have this dramatic heart-to-heart Characters we did not use in this show. We're going to build up Oob at the end of Z and not use him in this show. That's my problem with GT.
Speaker 1They don't use anybody. That they wrote, although, ironically, gt's ending is actually really good, but that's a story for another day. The best parts of Dragon Ball Z are when Goku's not there that's the general rule. And GT is when Goku's not there, as a general rule, and GT is just Goku's there the whole time, but it's the worst version of Goku okay, so you think that the characterization of Kid Goku that they put into Daimyo is better than GT?
Speaker 1absolutely. First off, he was fun and, second off, other characters mattered. So it's like, if you're going to make Goku an idiot, which is a fair writing choice. Although I think we agree that they made Goku a character of himself over the course of Super, the characters he's paired with needed to be in the journey because Goku's incompetent. So Gloria was actually useful the entire show because, like he knew the location, he booked a hotel, he crashed the planes, he stole the dragon balls, he did the backstabby backstab, he fired the pew pew gun he had a reason to be there.
Speaker 1He made quips to play off Goku. No one played off Goku in GT so they didn't actually Like. Trunks made a bad straight man for the straight man comedy duo, glorio made a great straight man for the duo and Supreme Kai honestly needed more screen time and I was fine with that. So for the first half of Daima, goku's running in all cylinders because Goku's doing objectively funny shit Goku and Glorio just ignoring the Minotaur to fight to the death was objectively funny yeah okay.
Speaker 1But like in GT, they're just like Goku trunks shoot the Minotaur and that'd be it. They forgot to put a bit there.
Speaker 2Yeah, okay, Because I mean, like you said, I haven't watched GT recently.
Speaker 1Correct, correct choice.
Speaker 2Don't do it Well, I mean when I was younger and it was on like Teletoon or YTV Either, or Also, why did you?
Speaker 1skip the first 20 episodes.
Speaker 2They sure did.
Speaker 1Which was a choice and arguably the correct one.
Speaker 2But so I enjoyed GT when I was younger. Perhaps my tastes were unrefined at the time, but so when I was watching Daima I was like it, just it felt recycled.
Speaker 1So it is a very beautiful show, but it definitely taught it toed the line between homage and recycling. It's like it's toed the line between homage and recycling. So like to like, kind of go over Daima a bit. The first arc of let's enter the demon world have some demon world shenanigans completely fuck with the power scaling and have Goku eat weird burgers Pretty good. Tv.
Speaker 1I will say I got pissed that the plane kept falling. The plane just kept exploding. I don't even know if that was a bit or not. When they get to the second Demon World. And now we have Vegeta and Piccolo and Bulma. Bulma had no reason to be in the show because they made a female Bulma specifically for some reason. I don't know why. It was a weird writing choice to introduce a character who was Demon Bulma and then introduce regular Bulma and do nothing with either of them.
Speaker 2Well, yeah, so like coming around to Vegeta and Bulma um.
Speaker 1This is some of their best character development in the franchise.
Speaker 2Well, okay, so I mean their character development aside, I just found it very an interesting choice where it's like, um, Bulma, Vegeta and Piccolo stay behind because Bulma is fixing the ship, and then, uh, she fixes the ship. She fixes the ship, the ship doesn't work. They're like, oh no, we can't get this mineral on Earth. And then immediately they start a second episode or the start of the next episode. They just show up with a ship and they're like, oh no, we need pins to activate warp. And then they're just like, yeah, I'll just call my pin code guy that just gives out pins for free. And it's like there was a lot of times where they said there was an obstacle, then it just wasn't. So I think part of its problem is it's very first draft, where they said there was an obstacle, then it just wasn't.
Speaker 1So I think part of its problem is it's very first draft Like it feels like this didn't go through an editor and I think people forget that Toriyama had a fantastic editor as well on Dragon Ball, and that's who they need to get on some of these shows.
Speaker 1So dig him up from the grave as well and have them both working on it, because it's like that is a very toriyama thing to do. Is we need to fix the plane? Oh, here's another plane, and typically he's because he was part of a team and they'd be like, no, what do you know? So here's what's interesting about the vegeta bulma thing. I'm going to go into an internet debate and I'm curious your thoughts on it the internet is furious that vegeta.
Speaker 1half the internet is furious that vegeta simps for his wife. I believe you can't simp for your wife, You're just a wife guy and that's a good character trait.
Speaker 2Yeah, I didn't realize that that was actually a debate. I thought that was a good characterization of him. It was kind of a weird bit where they're like you better come down here and stop fighting or else I'm never going to take a bath with you again. That is my favorite but it was funny so it was funny.
Speaker 1That bit's funny for three reasons you didn't think of okay so first it stops the momentum from to fly down instantly and that was just like such a unexpected camera cut that I'm like that was funny.
Speaker 1But the thing you didn't realize that's really funny is goku has a confused face because goku's taken baths with pomo before and they weren't that exciting. So that's the second joke where I really lasted. Like goku's like uh, uh, I'm like, yeah, he knows, it's not that interesting. You just get soap in your eye. Why would Goku care? And then you look at like everyone else in their face just like I can't believe this. But then you think about like what Vegeta's plot arc as he actually was, where he went from blowing up from his family to like actually listening to his wife. I'm like I'm so happy Bulma's there. They just that Pansy character became pointless. But Bulma and Vegeta don't ever actually get screen time together. That's true.
Speaker 1I enjoy watching them interact Some of the best parts of Super Wars. I'm just living their lives, Because Vegeta living his life is objectively hilarious.
Speaker 2Like when he takes Trunks to the amusement park.
Speaker 1So I was completely on board with that bit because that bit was legitimately funny. But also Team Bulma gets away with three things. Bulma and Vegeta's banter was fun, and then Hibis is just the man, the myth, the legend, and Dragon Ball Diablo is worth it entirely for adding Hibis to the canon. There's a bit where Hibis is like just straight up hitting on Bulma and then she's like I'm married and he's like that's fine and that killed me that line killed me.
Speaker 1And then, hibis, I'm gonna have some mud wine. What's mud wine? It's mud wine, it sucks. Hey, I want your magic belt cool, I want your hat. I'm not gonna fall for your seduction nonsense. I want your hat.
Speaker 2A hive is the man, the myth, the legend okay, um, but so what are your thoughts on Demon King Goma?
Speaker 1So Goma's interesting, but not so Goma. When he was just peel-offing it up, I was fine with Goma watching Dragon Ball Eclipse and being like, oh no, we gotta scheme and do things. And then when he turned into Cosplay Jiren, I was a little less on board. Like I enjoyed his magic eye throwing rocks at people and things. Like I kind of enjoyed like the theatrics of it. I don't know, I think I actually liked Goma. I just would have liked him more if he was more wizard and less jacked guy.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean it was kind of weird because until the moment that he got the third eye, he like everyone was saying don't underestimate him, but like he didn't appear to be a threat in any way.
Speaker 1And the thing is, I think, like for a Dragon Ball villain, like I said, you can have a doofy Dragon Ball villain, like even Frieza was doofy till he wasn't.
Speaker 2Right.
Graduate School Adventures and Gaming
Speaker 1But like I think what Goma was missing is a an editor to look over the script and clean up some of the loose ends, like when they had the off-brand ginyu force for some reason. But b goma like needed to be more active in his plan. I think if goma had gotten the eye himself through like wizard trickery right that would have done the Like. I think that's all that was missing was like Goma doing some shenanigans.
Speaker 2Or he just like sat around watching the Dragon Balls get collected and I don't know, waiting for Dende to grow up.
Speaker 1Right. So like if he had done more to mess with them. Like if he had done some more Rita Repulsa-ing, like watching the view screen, like did magic to screw with them. Like if Goma was sniping their plane, that would have helped immensely. Like, imagine if all the random bullshit they hit had that like Team Rocket effect of Goma's. Like fine, I'm gonna crash them on Giant Island. And then he stabs his staff down and the plane crashes and he's like, well, I guess that didn't work. I'm going to put a bounty out against him. If he was the cause of their problems, he would have nailed it as an ending, because I don't think his personality was the issue.
Speaker 1I think he didn't peel off enough. He needed to be more responsible for things going wrong.
Speaker 2I think that you're right. That would have made him a much more well-rounded villain Because, as it was, my main complaint in general is that they just kept saying things were obstacles and then they just weren't.
Speaker 1Right when Goma could have been giving them obstacles.
Speaker 2So like Kid Goku being in a kid body, right? You remember in Dragon Ball, where Goku lost the World Martial Arts Tournament because his legs were shorter than Jackie Chun's?
Speaker 1Yep, that would have been a great callback, by the way.
Speaker 2That would have been an amazing callback and it actually would have given some weight to the idea that his kid body is just not as effective as his adult body. But his kid body never really seemed to actually pose any issues at all.
Speaker 1Well, the thing is I get the writing choice for the kid body. I actually don't dislike where they started the show, where Sketchy Namekian dude turns them into kids to nerf them. What a reasonable choice from a writing point of view.
Speaker 2They wanted to do.
Speaker 1This's like Daima. Was them trying to redo GT? In a sense, and this made more sense than what GT did. Right. Because it's like, okay, I see where you're going with this, so no problem with that. However, it's like it was hard to gauge I to do this power levels of characters, and it's like I see why they did those that way for the fight.
Speaker 1at the very end they could be like let's bust out our movie quality animation and go ham with it, but like to go back to the goma third eye thing yeah I do think like part of the problem was he didn't wasn't the one who got the third eye, like I don't even think the third eyes and mcguffin bugged me much because right the payoff for the third eye was amazing. So let's talk about the. So the new characters they added to this goma was okay. Degasu forgot, aka budget zamasu forgot to actually do anything right.
Speaker 2He had some sort of evil plan where he was planning on kidnapping Dendi and running away until Dendi grows up.
Speaker 1I guess what's insane is he got the evil eye for Goma and didn't try and steal it. So here's what I would have done.
Speaker 1I would have added an episode to the show so I would have had A, instead of it being a random harlot, I absolutely would have had A. Instead of it being a random harlot, I absolutely would have had Degasu sexy jutsu and steal the belt himself, because that would have made that bit even funnier. Because they mentioned that kais don't have a gender yet for some reason count as Vaughn Underboob, as a kai, which would have no reason to have boobs, because they specifically mentioned that they grow from trees and don't have genders.
Speaker 1Yeah, okay so what would have been good payoff for that would be if the other guys like, oh yeah, guys can just look however they want. So he turned himself into barriers von underboob to try and get the belt, to then have goma like actually ice him with a spell or like mafuba him or something. So then we get that. That fight where we see Goma just get betrayed by Dagasu and then Dagasu get wrecked, would have been great, and it's like if you had to change a lot of dialogue, you would have just added an interaction between them. However, daima will continue to be a necessary part of the canon in my books, because Majin Ku and Majin Du are the best boys who deserve all of the canon in my books. Because Majin Koo and Majin Doo are the best boys who deserve all of the head pats.
Speaker 2Majin Koo and Majin Doo.
Speaker 1Majin Koo is amazing. He's good at errands. He volunteered to run them. He's good at books and deserves to be the rightful king. I have no problems with how that ended. I was very happy.
Speaker 2I am a little bit confused Again. It's really hard to tell how powerful anyone is in the series, but why was Goma able to react to Piccolo punching him in the back of the head, but not Majin Kud?
Speaker 1So my headcanon for this is. So Goma does this giant tornado thing and is distracted because he got like a massive super hole blown through his chest.
Speaker 2Right.
Speaker 1And then I think Koo pulled a Krillin and he didn't sense Koo Cause Koo was too shitty.
Speaker 2That's true. Koo was weaker than the Tamagamis.
Speaker 1So that's my headcanon is that he didn't sense Kuu, and also the joke of maybe the book has an answer and then just hitting him three times was worth it, fair enough. Followed by the other joke of Glorio just stepping on the eye and making the most satisfying squish noise. I found that immensely satisfying just be like squish so.
Speaker 2I don't imagine that you'll actually have any real answers, aside from they needed better editors. But like Deborah stole the eye from the vault of his father, right. So when uh, goma uses the eye and he gets super jacked and super powerful, and every time he like gets beaten up, he just gets restored by the eye there didn't actually seem to be any sort of drawback or reason why a demon king would just stop wearing the eye so here's my theory for that one Ignoring the classic, they forgot to give it a downside where it should have.
Speaker 1I'm surprised it didn't just say the eye makes you go crazy. But here's my headcanon. The eye has a weakness. If you're smacked three times in the back of the head, you lose the eye, and then the other guy just puts the eye in and then you're screwed.
Speaker 2Right.
Speaker 1So it's like A. My logic is you wouldn't keep the eye in all the time because you can't be a billion feet tall in your house, like it's just impractical to be infinitely strong forever. But I think that Deborah's strategy was he didn't want to use the eye because he didn't want to steal it. And my also understanding is the eye only seems to work in the demon world Like it moves the rocks around and bodies around, like repairs them from the demon world.
Speaker 1So maybe Deboro's like this isn't going to be helpful when I bounce.
Speaker 2Well, I mean, I think Deboro was planning on taking the eye for himself, and then his minion just stole it.
Speaker 1Yeah, think deborah was planning on taking the eye for himself and then his, his minion, just stole it. Yeah, so that's my logic is that the eye was probably like stolen by a minion, and the main reason you would not just wear it all the time is, I don't know like it probably would like make you become less rational, would be my theory yeah, yeah, they forgot to do that Alright, but here's the reason why Diamond can burn in a hellfire, though. Oh. So there's one thing happening to Diamond that I'm super pissed about.
Speaker 2Okay.
Speaker 1So Old man Namekian can awake your hidden potential. Sure, I'm fine with that. We see him use it on the Tamagami. Makes sense, he made the Tamagamis, we see him use it on the Tamagami Makes sense. He made the Tamagamis. We see him use it on Goku. It makes him Super Saiyan 4 for some reason.
Speaker 1I would have accepted an explanation of I infused him with demon world power. Demon plus Super Saiyan makes Super Saiyan 4. Sure, it looks demon-y. I would have accepted that. I would have accepted. Oh, I use my Namekian healing powers to give you your tail back. That gives you Super Saiyan 4. I would have accepted that. I would have accepted. Because you're kid Goku and you still have a tail, you can Super Saiyan 4. I would have accepted that too.
Speaker 1You know what I don't accept Goku and Vegeta having a conversation afterward and Goku just being like oh, I guess I've been working on it on the side, because that invalidates all of dragon ball super, because this happens before super. This show would have been 100 canon without any questions or issues whatsoever, had they not added a scene where they ruined it because they could have just not explained it. And then my assumption of oh, you need the namekian dude to give you the power up would have just stood and we were good. But they went out of their way to animate and voice a scene to invalidate their own show at the end of it. Why, why would you do that?
Speaker 2I was definitely a little bit confused, but I mean the whole transformation sequence, like say what you will about GT, but Goku going Uzaru and then like the touching where it pan brings him back to sanity and like yeah, that was a top tier transformation and it gave that transformation a lot of weight. Where like firstly, goku can just go super saiyan in his kid body because whatever, and then for some reason go ten and trunk scan well, yeah, but but I mean then he just like, oh, I guess I have to go Super Saiyan 3.
Speaker 2It's like, okay, and then, yeah, the transformation from Super Saiyan 3 to Super Saiyan 4, it was just like initially anyways, like I say it didn't have any weight, but then everyone was all surprised when he goes Super Saiyan 4 in his adult body, like I say it didn't have any weight, but then everyone was all surprised when he goes Super Saiyan 4 in his adult body, like that was just such a weird sequence of events.
Speaker 1They forgot to set it up and there's a lot of ways they could have set it up Because, as you mentioned before, the way they did it originally looking at the Earth's reflection and the Earth itself is the moon to turn into a giant ape. To have Penn get through to him to awaken Super Saiyan 4 justifies the existence of GT. If GT was broken into three recap movies Gundam Seed style, that first movie would be one of the top three Dragon Ball Z movies. Shadow Dragon just drops the ball so hard for using any character to do anything.
Speaker 2And.
Speaker 1Android 17 is so boring, so it's like yeah, no, like that. Super Saiyan 4 was cooler than Super Saiyan God. Super Saiyan 4 was cooler than Super Saiyan God Blue, which was objectively the lamest transformation objectively Ultra. Instinct was as cool when it wasn't a power-up.
Speaker 1So when it's just like, oh, he got so exhausted his body just moved on its own, that's sick they played it that he used a spirit bomb, burned out his energy completely and then his body's just moving as a husk and it's just pure martial arts, was cool. But then it turned into a power-up of a hair color change. I'm like, no, you had it the first time.
Speaker 2The first time was cool well, I mean then that also brings up the differences between super the manga and the anime, because in the in the manga I was like master roshi was very close to being able to just do ultra instinct and hold his own against you, and with that power, Although you've heard my rant about the manga, where its problem is that it's not willing to rewrite the entire show.
Speaker 1So my problem with the manga being like, oh, we'll just skip this arc, but we'll do other arcs differently, I'm like no, rewrite the whole show, you bastard.
Speaker 1You don't get to say I assumed you read the other thing if you're not going to actually follow the other thing and there's a few parts like they did better in the manga and a few parts they did worse. But like Daima as a whole, like as a self contained story because it was funnier, gets a lot of points over, like various chunks of the franchise. The Super Saiyan 4 was stupid and it could have been set up, but it wasn't.
Speaker 3Was funnier, gets a lot of points over, like various chunks of the franchise.
Speaker 1Hmm the Super Saiyan 4 was stupid and it could have been set up, but it wasn't like. If you're gonna have Neva do that, you should have teased it earlier by when he powered up to Tamagami, making the Tamagami go red and furry or at least some throwaway line about infusing them with demon power or something like you say, or you know what would have been sick, so we add an episode in where they're exploring the second demon realm and they just find an island, of Osarus. Ooh.
Speaker 1Right. And then, like now that that goes, it's like what are those? Like those are the Osarus. We heard a few of them escaped into universe seven years ago and we never know what happened to them. They said that they evolve over time and then that was like boom, I activated your Leighton Ozaru power. Boom Nailed it. I don't have a completed script before they started animating this thing, that's what happened?
Speaker 2Yeah, it kind of seems like it.
Speaker 1No, it was stated in an interview. They did not have a complete strip while they're animating it really, yep, which is a choice, a bad one? You're the most popular anime franchise in the world. Why would you, but yeah, like to like kind of wrap that up like was this better than dragon ball super superhero, where they're like oh, we're just gonna bring back the red red army and sell? Yeah, it had more creativity than a lot of Dragon Ball projects I've seen.
Speaker 1Like here's a hot take. He only used the Kamehameha three times and each time he used it was really cool.
Speaker 2Fair.
Speaker 1No one yelled out an attack name from Dragon Ball Z, so here's a hot take. In Dragon Ball Z, a character never used a technique twice in like canon.
Speaker 2dragon ball z, really I mean aside from the command man right like hell's own grenade.
The Coffee Maker Meltdown
Speaker 1Final flash, like everything that happened in the cell socket was like a one or done kind of thing. And there's a few things like destructo disc I used like twice but I don't even think he named it in the manga. And then like Flare got used a couple times but they like weren't spamming attack names when you get to like Super Vegeta's Galick Gunning every episode. The Super Saiyan 4 planet-busting, three-layer-creating Kamehameha blast was cool. The Super Saiyan 4 transformation was lame. Compared to GT, that Kamehameha was one of the top three Kamehamehas of all time. It was a cool concept to blow through three planets.
Speaker 2Right.
Speaker 1At least in my opinion. What did you think?
Speaker 2I would definitely say that that was cool blasting through the demon lord, well, through King Goma and then through the three realms, to create new pathways, and it's just like the demon realms themselves, I will say, were really like, interesting and unique with how they were layered.
Speaker 1Like I said, there's a lot to enjoy there, but there's no reason from the narrative they've written for Super Saiyan 4 to be there, other than make the GT parallel more obvious. No reason to be there. Also another reason that Dalma can rot in hell the fusion bugs. You didn't like the bugs. I would have loved the bugs if they used them.
Speaker 2That's true, they didn't actually use the bugs.
Speaker 1They introduce fusion bugs and then don't pay it off. So I would have hated if they fused goku and vegeta into super saiyan 4 gogeta. That would have been lame I wanted characters. I wasn't expecting to get to fuse to do stuff you know what would have been immensely cooler than super saiyan 4, goku and glorio fusing into Glory-ku.
Speaker 2Into Glorku.
Speaker 1Glorku would have been awesome. Also, piccolo was the most underutilized concept, so they were like retcon retcon. Retcon of Namekians were actually demons and Demon King Piccolo was actually a demon. Piccolo did nothing.
Speaker 2he did less than pan, like he did nothing in this show hey, he failed to punch goma in the back of the head twice.
Speaker 1Any other character could have failed to punch goma in the head. The thing that made piccolo interesting would have been like references to demon king piccolo. Like I wanted him to walk down the street and have like some tambourine-looking motherfucker bow Right. Like I would have loved it if Piccolo rolled up and people were like, oh god, former Demon King Piccolo. Like I would have loved it if they like slipped in a retcon that Demon King Piccolo is who was in charge before Dabura.
Speaker 1Like they could have done so much with Piccolo in Demon World Instead. Like they could have done so much with Piccolo in Demon World instead, he should have just waited on the lookout, like everyone else yeah, that's true, piccolo did.
Speaker 1Yeah, I'm pretty sure he did literally nothing the problem is they gave what he should have been doing to Shin cause, like they brought Shin to be the character who explains the Demon World. Piccolo would have worked just as well, and I don't think one would have worked better than the other, because they both would have been an effective straight man for comedy. But they didn't need both.
Speaker 2Well, and then, like you say, they doubled up on the female mechanic genius.
Speaker 1Right, like my other hot take is, I don't think they needed the second crew, as much as I enjoyed Vegeta going Super Saiyan 3 which I actually kind of did, because that was one of those retcons where you're like, well, why did you go Super Saiyan 3 against Marisa? Because Super Saiyan 3 kind of sucks. It drains your power too fast. So he just raged out and punched him instead, because of course, vegeta wouldn't try Super Saiyan 3. After he heard Super Saiyan 3, goku got knocked out in one punch. Yeah, I'm going to charge for 10 minutes against the guy who one-shots that. Why would I do that? Hmm, but like the Vegeta and Bulma moments were legitimately good, mm-hmm. Here's what should have happened Vegeta, goku, bulma and Piccolo should have been in the ship that went with Glorio, because sending a second crew was pointless. They didn't do anything interesting. They never split the party. Yeah.
Speaker 1Like, the D&D joke has never split the party, the writing joke has always split the party.
Speaker 2Yeah well, so there was another weird choice that they made Again, like so, uh, Goku or Vegeta beats up the random thugs, right, and then their plane gets stolen.
Speaker 1Because that's the show Planes. Just go to the ground in a show where people can fly, sure.
Speaker 2Right. But so then Goku and crew show up to be like oh sorry, we can't actually take you along because our ship's not big enough. God, was that a waste of screen time? Yeah, oh sorry, we can't actually take you along because our ship's not big enough, God.
Speaker 1Was that a waste of screen time?
Speaker 2Yeah, well, and then not only that, but then the villain, the nameless thugs, come to beat him up and they just get their plane back. There was another one of those things that was like you said, this was an obstacle, but it wasn't.
Speaker 1So here's what I would have done there. So you have two crews and two objectives. Objective one get the Dragon Balls and fight the Tamagami, and objective two rescue Dende and beat up Goma.
Speaker 2Which would have made sense for Piccolo to be on that team because he's Namekian.
Speaker 1So here's what I would have done is Goku goes and fights the first Tamagami and I enjoyed the Tamagami fight. I would have made the Tamagami a bit stronger, honestly, Because it's like Goku goes Super Saiyan. Technically, he went Super Saiyan 2. During that fight, the online Discord really tried to debate the hairband because Super Saiyan 2 is not visible, it just has the little zappy zaps Right. And then he played a shell game. I'm fine with that. I kind of enjoy their now-attestive skill part. That's a fine mechanic for me.
Speaker 1But then when Vegeta and pals met up with them, they should have went. Okay, we're going to go directly to the third Demon World. So Goku and Kuro go directly to the third, and then Vegeta and Kuro go to the second.
Speaker 1And now we have cut-ins bouncing between these characters, because then having two identical crews isn't a problem if they travel separately. So then we get vegeta fights the kraken hates, seafood bugs, mud wine, hybus trying to talk them into a three-way fights, the tamagami, and then we have goku actually dealing with goma and goma city, which means that we can have goma be a problem when they're in the third demon world. And then you can have vegeta, then double back and pick up the army when that army shows up to help them. Like you get the idea right, like you split the tasks, so then your characters can be doing different things, because the show keeps thinking Goku and Vegeta have entertaining on-screen chemistry. They don't. They do not.
Speaker 1You know who have entertaining on-screen chemistry Vegeta and Hibis. Because Hibis is so clueless and so done with his corporate 9-to-5 job, vegeta's threats mean nothing to him. Like what are you going to do? Put me in a minimum wage job.
Speaker 2Uh yeah, hibis was a pretty, was a highlight of the show.
Speaker 1I also really enjoyed Gloria. Like there's a few moments where Gloria like just pulled a gun on a dude and just splashes his drink in their face. I'm like you know, right, you're pretty cool.
Speaker 2Okay, so I mentioned a while ago, a little bit back here, that Dabura had the power to turn people to stone with his spit, yes, with his spit, yes, um, and, and you mentioned it was like, oh yeah, maybe if uh goma had been like summoning rocks to try and take down their ship and intentionally crafting them onto the, the giant island or whatever right like I wanted to get team rocket with this.
Speaker 1Like I wanted to cast a spell. The term bees giant kind of bullshit well.
Speaker 2So it's like again back back in Dragon Ball. Goku lost to General Blue, who was objectively weaker, but he had a weird power, namely the like um, that's one thing that I he literally he breaks concentration on holding goku still, because he's he's a mouse running from him, which is hilarious right and so like I was really expecting more uh demons having quirky magic powers, but for some reason they all just use guns.
Speaker 1Well, it's kind of funny, it's Glorious, like demons have magic and shot lightning at Goku and then everyone switched to guns. Because, I agree, quirky demon magic would have been a great choice. Also, the final boss battle shouldn't have been like Super Jack Third Igoma. It probably should have been Ku and Dew f fusing if we want someone to actually fight. Oh, fight, oh yeah because I would have been fine with the villains using the fusion bugs. I'm just mad that checkoff's fusion bug did nothing, like I'm.
Speaker 2I'm bitter about that, majin Dooku.
Speaker 1Right, so the joke being that they fused into Majin Boo.
Speaker 2No, no, they would just be Dooku. Then they would fight with a lightsaber.
Speaker 1But either way, and also you could do the aesthetic, because Coo looked like Kid Boo and Do looked like Fat Boo and they'd fuse into Super Boo and be legitimately intimidating.
Speaker 2That's true.
Speaker 1And like, if we really want to do the we made Ku and Du, having them like turn into like a Superboo and like absorb one of these people we brought along for no reason. Mm.
Speaker 1Like there's a lot they could have done with that, but the thing is like I don't mind them being reluctant antiheroes and I'm happy with President Majin Ku. Also, I've determined that the Glyns are racist, judge as a character, nepo-babies and should probably all be killed. So she goes up to Arisu who said, quote I want to make the demon world worse, which I liked her, by the way. Her motivation's like oh, I'm just here to let chaos reign.
Speaker 2Right.
Speaker 1And it's like, actually I'm gonna wish to be the king. I'm like that's lame, like I want your wish to actually be. Hey, Gloria, make my wish. What's your wish? I want to reign bees, or literally, I wish the demon world was worse. Is actually my wish, right? I mean, she was getting wishjacked and they were being wished back to being adults anyway. That's the only way it could have went.
Speaker 2Right right.
Speaker 1But, like Shin, going up and being like you should be in charge. I'm like, can you think of a single reason other than racism why that is true? What are you talking about?
Speaker 2You have a sliver of good in you.
Speaker 1No, this is just racism, all right. You're like no, no, we're the glins, we're in charge of everyone. I'm like this is pretty Zamasu, but two out of three glins we saw in this miniseries were psychopath tyrants. Two out of three, Three out of three if you count Shin.
Speaker 2Well, I mean, he kind of isn't a psychopath, but Are you sure?
Speaker 1Pretty psychopathic to appoint the person making a new Majin Buu as president. Like I can't imagine anything that crazy happening in real life, like that'd just be wild for a person to be. Like I can shoot you on the street and then get elected twice.
Speaker 2That would be pretty wild.
Speaker 1But moving away from obvious fiction, so like the ending is kind of funny, as the Super Saiyan 4 nonsense was nonsense. But like I said, even though you're like, I'm not sure it makes sense that he hit him three times with the book, like it was missing something like using like Masaroshi's Zappu technique or something to hold Goma, to get smacked by the book Like I'm finding that smacked by the book.
Speaker 1I think it was just missing his brother going all goopy Zuperson and then like tie him up with his body or something Like if Du had wrapped him up or full Nelsoned him or something, so Ku could do the smack, smack, smack. I don't think we would have had a problem with that.
Speaker 2Yeah, well, it's just like there didn't seem to be any meaningful difference between the way Piccolo attacked and the way Ku attacked. But Ku was successful because the way Ku attacked. But Ku was successful because the show was over.
Speaker 1I mean counterpoint. Majin Du went Super Saiyan 3 after being thrown a giant cookie and that was just great.
Speaker 2Majin Du going. Super Saiyan 3 was pretty amazing.
Speaker 1Especially the joke that Majin Ku's, like I, can run errands and that ended up being relevant on three occasions. Or him speed reading being the solution to the boss up being relevant on three occasions. Or him speed reading being the solution to the boss also being relevant. Like they wrote him so well, like they arced that random saiba ben majin. Like yeah, we had no his character arc. We know what we're gonna do with him. He's a good brother, he's a good assistant. He's gonna make his mom a better person. I'm like no, this is, this is great. Like this is a fantastic character. You decided to introduce eight episodes in. That's the emotional core of the show, somehow Right after he's like to the Tamagami. I lose, but I can still do other things. Don't fire me.
Speaker 2I'm pretty powerful.
Speaker 1I'm not super powerful, but I'm pretty powerful. I'm like, yeah, no, Majin Koo, supremacy here. I also really enjoyed the bit where Nava's like to the Tamagotchi like wink, go, go. And he's like me, Like, yeah, go, and like they just do that awkward bit for like a minute. That was great. He's like am I allowed to go do the thing? He's like, yeah, go do the thing.
Speaker 2Also, Neva not being the big bad, Neva was sketchy as hell uh, yeah, neva was definitely super sketchy, uh, and it's like he did all sorts of weird things and so again, you know, oh, warpzomba's disabled. A good thing that Neva's here to disable the gates that he put on there for some reason, because he didn't like people visiting his homeworld. I don't know.
Speaker 1So on one hand, I don't hate them putting on the gates to make like a racist case system, like had Goma put on the gates A, that would have been a good Goma shadowing right. Like oh, oh yeah, this is a spell put out by goma to make our lives worse.
Speaker 1That would be great, and I don't even hate that. Neva's like, oh, I've been hanging out here trying to find a way to counterspell this, so it was like, yeah, goma, put on these gates. So we use warp sama. You know what, fuck, goma. But what was missing is like an inspirational piccolo speech like here's how I would have wrote that the gates are put up by Goma.
Speaker 2To be racist.
Speaker 1Because it's on bread. Makes him a little scarier. If he could just create magical portal gates. Right. Neva's like reluctantly tagging along and earlier in the episode has a chat with Piccolo about oh, how are the people doing anyway? Oh, we're gods, now we're doing great Da-da-. But oh, how are the people doing anyway? Oh, we're gods, now we're doing great, da, da, da da. This one actually saved our entire race from frieza. So when goku's falling to his death, never being like, ah, fuck it, and then saving him, like the idea that never you could have left him morally gray and be like, oh yeah, I was totally gonna let this kid die.
Food, Fun, and Video Game Nights
Speaker 1but then one of my people came from outside and told me about it and I figured, you know what, I am going to screw over Goma, because the idea that he was playing senile I like it better, that he was evil and then realized that Namekians are a thing again and it's like you know what, and did an actual betrayal would have been interesting.
Speaker 2But instead his character was just the MacGuffin that solves all their problems.
Speaker 1And, like I said, if Piccolo's purpose was to convince the MacGuffin to do MacGuffin things, that would have justified Piccolo being there.
Speaker 2Yeah, like you say, Piccolo did absolutely nothing.
Speaker 1Also because Piccolo's fused with Kami and Nail. It would have been good if Piccolo knew who this Neva guy was. It would have been good if Piccolo knew who this Neva guy was. Like, I think it would have been interesting to be like. I know you, you're sketchy as fuck. Like I would have loved them. Like cat and mousing each other the entire time. Where, like Neva's endgame was to kill Goma, it could have been really interesting.
Speaker 2Okay, but you said that they actually admitted in an interview that they didn't have a complete draft when they started animating.
Speaker 1Yeah, according to their animation deadlines, they hadn't scripted out the whole thing yet. Huh, wild choice, right, there's a reason why Arcane wins all the awards and Dragable Diamond does not.
Speaker 2Well, yeah, like you say, this seems to be very obviously a first draft, where they have things that could be really cool obstacles Like if they crash, land on the Mega Island and one of them gets kidnapped to be a pet a la Gilligan's Island, and then the rest of the party has to sneak into this giant castle and rescue their captured friend. That would have been a genuine and interesting obstacle for them to overcome, but instead they just fly away.
Speaker 1And also like let's go with the plane being stolen. I think the plane being stolen needs to be handled in a non-faito-faito way. So I would have enjoyed Glorio going through a speakeasy. I would have liked Glorio doing a full noir episode to try and track down their plane. I would have loved Glorio to just shoot a person in the face. Bring back some of that violence from Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball of Goku. Just watches Glorio shoot a person in the face and be like that's not nice. We don't shoot people in the face when they steal our plane.
Speaker 2Gloria would have been great but yeah, I just I feel like the show was very well animated and I mean I almost want to watch GT to see if it's as bad. I feel like the show was very well animated and I mean I almost want to watch GT to see if it's as bad as you say it is.
Speaker 1That would be a fun retroactive to compare, because I'm going to put a hot take. I think GT had some more ambitious ideas and I think Daima had more creativity until it didn't.
Speaker 1So it was like gt's an interesting one, because on paper gt has really cool ideas parasit alien that steals all his friends bodies to build himself a super body, to turn into a giant ape, interesting doctor. The two villains creating an evil plan where they open a gateway to hell to bring back all the old villains but it hadn't been done to a death yet.
Speaker 1The Dragon Balls cracking from overuse and forming the big bad of Dragon Ball. Great idea. They just forgot they had other characters who weren't kid Goku like. It's funny that I'm still making this complaint them being kids in Daima. To put them on the same level as these random demons was interesting. Like I didn't hate the idea. I'm not sure how well it held up. When you like, pay attention to it, but I get the idea of why you'd want to nerf them in the first place, so random bandits with guns can actually hurt them. Right.
Speaker 1But, like GT, the villains were all already stronger than Goku, so there was no reason to nerf Goku fair right like. Instead of making Goku a kid again, it should have been adult. Goku Pan should have had more of Goku's personality. I think if the grand tour was Pan, goku and Uub and and Uub and Pan and Uub trying to like straight man each other and then Goku pulling was Cell Saga, goku of like. I don't want to step in until I have to, because this is a learning experience for these kids. Right.
Speaker 1That would have been really compelling, right, because you would have had Pan with Goku energy going and picking fights, starting problems, causing chaos, being a chaos gremlin you would have had noob, the character who grew up from like a poor village, trying to be like the straight man.
Speaker 1here's what we're doing. So it'd be like almost like the bulma goku dynamic from dragon ball would be pan being the goku and being the bulma, while goku is taking more of a Master Roshi role at this point and then when the Tuffle thing starts heating up Goku's, like, oh shit, I need to actually do stuff now Because once like the. Tuffle invasion happens. He doesn't need to be Kid Goku anymore because it is reasonable for Vegeta and Gohan and Goten and Trunks and Piccolo all jumping him at once to ruin his day. Right.
Speaker 1Like that made sense. So that's my thing is like no, you should have kept him adult Goku, but like the Goku's actually trying to help the next generation and let Pan be the narrative lead in GT. Daima's problem was actually just a lack of focus, Because I don't think they had two crews and, like I was saying, had those crews been allowed to operate independently and accomplish shit. Their problem was, as you keep saying, they forgot to give them actual obstacles and they forgot to make the villains actual threats.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Because them being kids means they should have had actual threats, like, as you mentioned, yeah is a rock. Because I think it would have been objectively funny to watch Bulma, with like a Vegeta statue tied to her back, bitching her entire way through trying to find an antidote that would have like given them an actual problem.
Speaker 2Yeah, because I mean even them being turned into kids didn't really actually seem like a problem. The problem that Dende got kidnapped is relatively serious, but Dende didn't really seem to be the emotional core as soon as he got into the demon world. It's like, oh, actually, let's fight the Tamagami. It's like, well, what about Dende? You?
Speaker 1know what's wild, they could have fixed it. It would have been really easy to fix when Dende you know what's wild, they could have fixed it. It would have been really easy to fix when Dende got turned to a kid Earth Dragon Balls turn off. Then there's only one way to bring them back and it's the Demon Dragon Balls.
Speaker 2Right.
Speaker 1Other than the Namekian Dragon Balls, which also exist. Honestly, they could have just solved all this by warping to new Namek and making a wish, and it would have just been fixed in 30 seconds.
Speaker 2The last thing I want to say that kind of bugged me about Daima. So Goku's like, oh, I'm not used to my kid body, my range isn't the same, oh, I'll just go get the the Nioibo. I was like, okay, okay, that's cool and he does actually like use it. But I almost feel like whenever he actually gets serious, he just throws it to the side. Oh yeah, I almost feel like I got nostalgia-baited. They're just like, eh, check it out. He has his Neobo again and I don't fall for nostalgia bait very often, but I I don't know what I expected the new eyeball to actually do, but I was sad that it actually wasn't relevant at all, you know kind of a hot take.
Speaker 1as much as I enjoyed the Vegeta Bulma scene, how much better do you think Daima would have been if it was just Goku Glorio Shin? Well, I would have swatched out Shin with Piccolo. So I would have went Goku Piccolo Glorio and didn't bring in Vegeta until the very end when they'd fixed their ship, because I do think part of it too was like part of the threat factor not being a threat. It's weird, because they nerfed the characters but then never had them lose a fight. I think Goku needed to lose to that first Tamagami.
Speaker 2Or something.
Speaker 1Because if Goku just like didn't beat it or I also would have been fine with him going Super Saiyan 3, beating it and being like a pile on the ground, because then you had ku and do beat the third one and that would set the stakes right. If goku is equal to tamagami one and then majin ku beats tamagami 3, then you're like, oh, these are actually dangerous yeah, that was, I guess, one of the things I texted you when I was suggesting this as a title or episode.
Speaker 1I mean is that they forgot to set a reference point for how powerful these characters actually are relative to the new kid bodies like they need to get beat up, like to be perfectly clear, like they need to get first day they show up in demon world. They get jumped by generic thugs. Goku can beat up generic thugs while eating a burger. That's fine. That's some classic dragon ball shenanigans. But somewhere around episode three or four he needed to just get his shit stomped.
Speaker 2Yeah, and then they need to like regroup and actually fight strategically, you know.
Speaker 1Like you know what would have been actually pretty good. So you know what they could have done with Gomo, that would have been fun. So they go into the first demon world, right, and then Gomo's like we need to go stop them. Gomo shows up, hand waves and just warps the party to random spots in the demon world. Hmm, or it also would have been really fun if, like Goma shows up and then his Kai friend like puts a hand on the shoulder of like some other character, like Glorio or whoever, and then like teleports them away. So it's just Goku and Goma, and then Goma wrecks his shit. Hmm, it's just Goku and.
Speaker 1Goma and then Goma wrecks his shit. Or even before they left the lookout, I think getting wish to kids and then Goku getting beat up by Goma would have been correct.
Speaker 2Well, yeah, because Goma literally didn't do anything until he got the third eye and he just was the demon. It just seemed like kid Goku could have just soloed the demon world on his own.
Speaker 1Yeah, he could have soloed the demon world on his own.
Speaker 2Yeah, he could have objectively. I mean even the, the supposedly massive army of gendarm gendarmory uh, that had them pinned down for some reason is like they're. They're generic thugs that are weaker than a tamagami. Why, why is goku struggling?
Speaker 1well, it's kind of interesting, is? It's like they casually threw away this level of the demon. World is heavy, this one's watery, this one's really hot, but they forgot to make those handicaps matter. If. Goku's, like I'm exhausted because I can't breathe, would have been pretty reasonable.
Speaker 2Well, exactly.
Speaker 1But also it's kind of a thing that people forget about Dragon Ball. So in early Dragon Ball Goku solos everybody for the most part right, they remember that. Oh yeah, goku went and beat up the entire Red Ribbon Army. They forget that in every plot arc at least one person exists to slap Goku shit like Roshi, rolled up specifically with the goal in mind to be humble Goku. Goku's win loss in Z is terrible Because we get to the Red Ribbon Saga and he loses to Blue. He has a really bad day with White when he gets literally kicked out of the tower he's just found in a snowbank. He gets demolished by Tao, just absolutely slaughtered. Yeah, gets bodied by King Piccolo, gets bodied by Tien and like Z's, like Z's, like oh no, no, no, goku's getting killed episode 1 and then every bone in his body broken in episode 20. And I'm like, yeah, no, you're right. The problem is you turned them to get to nerf them and they didn't have anyone beat them up. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2And like I'm, it's just. I have no idea how strong these Tamagami are relative to anything else. And if the Tamagami are relative to anything else, and if the Tamagami are weaker than Kid Saiyans, then the Demon itself is.
Speaker 1The Tamagami are as strong as Dabura, who's as strong as Perfect Cell.
Speaker 2Okay.
Speaker 1So the Tamagamis are as strong as Perfect Cell.
Speaker 2Goku. So then you draw that comparison in kid Goku going Super Saiyan. Maybe Super Saiyan 2 is stronger than Cell.
Speaker 1Super Saiyan 2 Goku. The age that Gohan was when he went. Super Saiyan 2 against Cell yeah, actually.
Speaker 2You think so?
Speaker 1It would have been if Goku was wrecked afterward. Because if it was a close?
Speaker 1fight, then yeah, I could buy that Super Saiyan 2 Goku was wrecked afterward. If it was a close fight, then yeah, I could buy that Super Saiyan 2. Goku in a kid body Was as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Gohan when he fought Perfect Cell After Buu Saga. If that was the metric we're using, I would have bought it If Goku had been like Nothing left. I also would have been really happy if Goku lost and the Tamagami's like huh, you did good and you're a good person, so you lost the fight, but I'll give you a second chance. Let's play a minigame, mm. Because if the Tamagami's like why do you want the Dragon Ball? It's like we need to save our friends in the demon world. That'd be weird. No one does good things by default. So he's like he loses the fight, but it's close. And the Tamagami's like you know what? Let's play a game, because then Goku's still lost to the Tamagami but won its respect.
Speaker 2Yeah, and then, like you say, if Wenmajin do beats up the other Tamagami, then it sets that scaling, that you know that Du is a big deal.
Diving into Dragon Ball Daima
Speaker 1And another thing I would have accepted is if Goku went Super Saiyan 3. Against that, first Tamagami won and then was just out, done Like it was like. Eh, that is every piece of energy in my body. Should not have done this as a kid. It's in the dirt Like it was like and that is every piece of energy in my body. Should not have done this as a kid. I was just in the dirt, like I'm not just for the episode, like till the end of the next episode. They had to be carrying him Because beating the Tamagami drained his battery so hard. That would have been fine, because then Gloria would have had to be useful, because then they would have had to play Defend Goku for a couple episodes. Right.
Speaker 1Which is the name of Dragon Ball Z was the Defend Goku show. But overall, like I said, I still rate it pretty high because the animation was good. The new characters were stellar. Like even Nevo was like okay, sketching the Emekian dude. If I got a Dragonball Daima 2 to pick up some of these loose ends they never got around to, I'd be fine, I'd be happy with that. Hmm.
Speaker 2But yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1And I don't dislike my placement because, like I said, gt meandered a lot. Daima in a vacuum was better than a lot of Super. To rant about Dragon Ball Super, even though the episode's gone pretty long at this point. So in Dragon Ball Super, do you remember when they were like we're going to have a Universe 6 versus Universe 7 tournament?
Speaker 2Right.
Speaker 1Why, in Zeno's name, did they not make Universe 6 as strong as Universe 7? Why did they not have Frieza show up, frost show up and let him go Gold Frost and be like, oh, wait a minute. And then have Cabba show up and go Super Saiyan God, because he's a good-hearted Saiyan and five Saiyans gave him the power. Universe 6, if they rolled up as strong as Universe 7, super would have been such a better show. Because the idea is like oh, goku and Vegeta are so super powerful now they don't measure was the wrong approach. It should have been they're so super powerful that they're the strongest people in this universe. But it turns out in the parallel universe other people went through the same shit as they did and are as powerful Like I couldn't believe. When they're like yeah, one of the strongest people we're using in this tournament is as strong as Frieza from the Frieza saga, like why there's no stakes here at all. Also, how does him not just own that universe? The strikeable superpower scaling is worse than Diamond's, for the record.
Speaker 2That is also true, because we're like okay.
Speaker 1Goku's so strong he disintegrates asteroids by punching someone else. And then Super Saiyan 1, kaba, is to be taken seriously. And if he's strong enough to defeat a literal god of destruction, why does he not just own his universe, like the amount stronger he is than everyone else there? If that's your top five and we got, number four is I have Super Saiyan. I just learned and number five.
Speaker 1It's like number two is I just learned Super Saiyan and number one is I can beat up Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Then I'm sorry, but this guy is so much stronger than everyone else in his universe combined. It's not actually fair. Like what do you mean people? You do things for money. Why would you need money? Goku can shoot a Kamehameha through three planets and you beat him up. You won that fight.
Speaker 2He sure did.
Speaker 1But like disregarding how I think Daima may in fact be better than Super. Hmm. Actually, I think I'll say it Daima was better than Super. Hmm, actually, I think I'll say it.
Speaker 2Daima was better than Super. Well see, battle of Gods was so good.
Speaker 1That was Z in a movie.
Speaker 2I'm just saying Battle of Gods. I mean I think the movie was much better than the season based on the movie.
Speaker 1But I can firmly say Battle of Gods wasn't Super than the season based on the movie. I can firmly say Battle of Gods wasn't Super. So when Super did Battle of Gods, they took a lot of creative liberties. Right. And Beerus is amazing Peak character, 10 out of 10. Great villain.
Speaker 1Some of the crap they pulled in the Battle of Gods Super version, like when they did those punching classes that disintegrated random planets or that like oh, there's a bit in the movie where Goku Super Saiyan God wears off and he just starts fighting because he's so awesome, and then the anime they're like and he gets God mode back at the end. I'm like, no, you missed the point of all of this. I think the fact that they just had Super Saiyan God, super Saiyan afterward and it was just a thing they could do, undercuts Battle of God so much that Super actually makes Battle of God worse by what follows afterward.
Speaker 2Hmm, fair.
Speaker 1Because it's like, yeah, no, like the idea being that Super Saiyan God is as strong as Goku gets and then Super, hmm, fair. Because it's like, yeah, no, like the idea being that Super Saiyan God is as strong as Goku gets and then Super's him trying to get back to that height is such a better plot arc than actually. I've already surpassed that, but somehow I have problems. Hmm.
Speaker 1Because it's like, if Goku's actually beer as strong throughout all of Super, why was there even a tournament of power then? Like, who are these other people? Why is Krillin there If Goku's not?
Speaker 1Because there's this bit where he's going around collecting people and he goes Super Saiyan Blue against Android 17 and I'm like you broke the power scaling, Joe. You broke this completely, Because no one else should measure at all. If Beerus is one tapping Super Saiyan 3, Goku and then Goku's now approaching Beerus, why is Tien here? Like the tournament power I really enjoyed, but it's power scaling is just so ridiculously whack it hurts.
Speaker 2I guess that's fair.
Speaker 1Like it's ludicrous to be like oh, android, so-and-so, who is cell-strong is fighting Jiren who one-tapped a god, I don't understand what's happening anymore. So Diamond's power scaling, I think was actually a lot better. Like here's my hot take is the kid's thing was weird. But if we go that a Tamagami is equal to perfect self and we argue that kid Goku mostly lost stamina and runtime but technically is as strong as kid Gohan was in that age, which would be a fair thing to say, Then Tamagami won and if we assume the Tamagamis were getting stronger and they weren't
Speaker 1like 1, 2, and 3 were each a little bit stronger, or if they were the same, we go Goku equal to Super Saiyan 2 Goku, weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta, because Vegeta's Tamagami got a buff. And then Majin Buu is about as strong as Majin Buu who fought Super Saiyan 3 Goku, but he's been nerfed and Goku's been nerfed. These characters are all kind of fitting in a relative power scale. And then Goma just had an Infinity Plot X MacGuffin. He had the Hengu, so who doesn't matter. And the problem was like the joke being they only appropriately power-scaled Ku and Du, who weren't actually villains. Like there was never the tag-team fight of Goku and Vegeta versus Ku and Du. That just didn't actually happen.
Speaker 2Yeah, it was so close.
Speaker 1Because, like I think, one of their misplays was being like Goku, taking out the Tamagami Means. Everyone in this demon world is weaker than Goku, except these new characters we made Specifically to deal with Goku that we never used to deal with Goku, yep, but I do think it handled it better than Super, where it was like complete nonsense.
Speaker 2True.
Speaker 1Like how strong was. How strong was Future trunks in dragon ball super when he pulled out a spirit bomb sword using a technique he'd never even heard about?
Speaker 2uh, yeah, the future trunks should not have even been able to hold a candle next to anything in that plot arc. Really.
Speaker 1And it's like they could have made it so he could have, because they're like oh yeah, he went and trained with the Supreme Kai and like, defeated Bobbidi so Boo never got released. I'm like you screwed up. You had him train with the Supreme Kai, get his potential unlocked with Gohan and beat Boo. And now we can believe he's a credible character Because you let him have 10 years off-screen, since he had 10 years off-screen which A? He should have been 10 years older because his timeline runs parallel to Goku's timeline.
Speaker 1So he should have been like 30. I would fully believe 30-year-old Trunks, after dealing with the Buu saga by himself, was at Goku and Vegeta's level, Other than the god bullshit like Like, I would have been fine with him being a badass in that circumstance.
Speaker 2But I think that's probably enough ranting about Dragon Ball, daima and Super, and we should probably move on to a random question.
Speaker 1I suppose so.
Speaker 2I mean, the more random, the better.
Speaker 1Let's see. Looking for it, looking for it. Ugh, already used that, already used that.
Speaker 2Uh-oh, Spaghetti-O.
Speaker 1Do-do-do-do. We already used the Life has a Theme Song one, because we probably talked about how you wrote me a theme song.
Speaker 2I'm not sure if we did, but I did write you a theme song.
Speaker 1Have we done the Spirit Animal yet?
Speaker 2I don't specifically remember.
Character Chronicles: Goku vs. Goma
Speaker 1All right. What is your spirit animal and why do you think it's that animal? So mine's raccoon. I am just a trash panda. To my very core of my being, I eat garbage. I'm the exact golden ratio shape of a raccoon. Raccoon is my spirit animal. I have the same dark circles under my eyes and have committed as many crimes allegedly. Ooh.
Speaker 2Well, I mean, uh, I, uh, I'm thinking um, well See, a lot of cats are assholes, so it would have to specifically be like a chill cat, like my cat. Her name is Elsa aw. She's very cute, but she's very like chill and indifferent, but not like aggressive and assholey like some cats are.
Speaker 2My cat's a potato, yeah, miko. Miko is another good cat example. So, like a small house cat, I feel like that would be my spirit animal. I'm not a big cat because big cats are. I mean, big cats are pretty athletic and I don't know if I'm actually that athletic. I think I am.
Speaker 1But Although I do think I used this question wrong. What I should have done is I should have had us pick each other's spirit animal because that's more interesting. So I would give you a capybara.
Speaker 2Capybara. Oh yeah, capybara, that would probably actually be pretty good.
Speaker 1Capybara, don't give a shit. Capybara is just out here living his best life in the hot spring and no one attacks. It has no predators because it's too busy being Capybara. So I'd give you Capybara. Hmm, hmm, hmm, uh, hmm, hmm, uh, hmm.
Speaker 2I think you might be your spirit animal. Might be a dolphin not.
Speaker 1The choice are you saying unpleasant things about me.
Speaker 2No, no, no, I'm saying that you're very intelligent and extremely social.
Speaker 1I'm an introvert, I just play social person on TV, but I'll take it. I'll take the answer.
Speaker 2You can only fake being an introvert for so long. You can only fake being an extrovert for so long before it becomes true.
Speaker 1Yeah, except when I had a week off and I no longer had to fake being an extrovert. I dropped off the face of the earth for a solid week and it was great.
Speaker 2I suppose that's true. But All right, maybe I'm way off the mark with the dolphin. I'll take it, I'm not going to fight you over it.
Speaker 1Obviously it's your opinion. It can be wrong, it's your right you're so thoughtful glad we built each other up here, clearly, clearly that is the goal alright. And our second one Do-do-do-do-do-do. This one's a direct attack against me, clearly. Are you a? Good dancer.
Speaker 2Depends on the dance. I've been called the Polka King.
Speaker 1I believe that that tracks. So last wedding I went to, one of my friends dragged me onto the dance floor and I could not be less cool than this person. So I had to try, but I was very drunk, the joke being that I can actually ballroom dance, but it never comes up Because, like one of my goals growing up was to grow up to be Tuxedo Mask or Zex Marquise, and neither of those things happened.
Speaker 2Too bad.
Speaker 1But I will say that I can, in theory, slow dance and I can also thrash around randomly to music while drunk. I have that ability. I would not call that dancing.
Speaker 2Me and my fian fiance haven't really actually done anything, but we have enough space in our basement where we could actually probably actually learn how to dance. I'm hoping to maybe eventually find some YouTube tutorials on how to do the jive and then, when we get married, we'll Go take a dance class. Or you know, I could, if I had funds, I would just buy you a dance class and make you go take it.
Speaker 1It's good for you.
Speaker 2It probably would be good for me. But anyway, you know, I've, I've, uh, I've always wanted to. You know, dance classes have always interested me. I've just never made the time or money for it.
Speaker 1I'm just sad. I've never been to a masquerade ball Like that's. So many kinds of my vibe, it's ridiculous. Wow, this last question is so loaded and I probably shouldn't get into it this late into the episode, but I'm going to do it. What? Is your best idea for a new invention Best to do it.
Speaker 2What is your best idea for a new invention?
Speaker 1My best idea for a new invention that could easily be like a two-hour long episode.
Speaker 2You just gotten this. Well, I have two options. The first, I've probably mentioned before, is the Amazing Steakhouse. Not exactly an invention.
Speaker 1I'll let you have that the smart maze system.
Speaker 2Yeah, the smart maze system. But idea number two, which I think I may have actually even mentioned to you relatively recently, but a dice rolling tray. I don't know what specific application this would have, but a dice rolling tray which has cameras underneath and so when you roll the die, based on the result that the camera can see provided it's a normal die where each opposite side will equal the number of faces plus one, uh, so with the camera you could tell what number you've rolled, based on what number it can see, and thus would be able to transmit physical dice rolls into a digital environment. I would love to see that. I don't think it actually exists.
Speaker 1There are similar products but I don't think that.
Speaker 2The dice aren't smart.
Speaker 1That's what they said in high school, yeah.
Speaker 2You can use any die.
Speaker 1My first invention was what I want the Switch 2 to be, which is you got a handheld console they can plug a card into, but it has a built in LED projector where, wherever you set it up, it then becomes a projector to play on any surface. It's like I want a Game Boy I can project on a movie theater screen and just play, because that'd be awesome. So that's my first new. Because that'd be awesome.
Speaker 2So that's my first new invention, because that'd be sick. That would be insane.
Speaker 1And my second invention is how can I put this? I really want to make I think I've told you this before for working on board game a character tracker that basically uses crib pens, and it's like a nice wooden character tracker that you use to track your stats in a board game. I don't know, I just think it'd be neat to make one of those, but classy. It's less of an invention though.
Speaker 2I mean, that's true, I've seen a variety of different character tracker items in board games, but the crib-style board would be pretty nice.
Speaker 1And I think that's that and with that, thank you everybody for tuning in to Richard and Carl Bitch About Dragon Ball Dyma and may the hybus be with you.
Speaker 2And self-care hydrate. You know exercise.
Speaker 1And praise Supreme Overlord Majin Koo Koo. 2024, got my vote. I love the line. I was like wait, is he actually going to be really good at this? Show was worth it for him alone. Bye, Bye.
