Deep Space and Dragons
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Deep Space and Dragons
Episode 94: Gotta go fast with Creativity, Science, and the Sonic Cinematic Saga
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Ever wondered how a quirky podcast name like "Deep Space and Dragons" came to be? Richard and Karl share the humorous backstory of their show's branding journey and why creativity matters in crafting an identity. They dive headfirst into personal projects, from Richard's DIY graphic design escapades to his Teespring shop adventures, and sprinkle in a lively chat about the intricate dance between science and the supplement industry, courtesy of Karl's fiancé's health quest. Multivitamins become a surprising bridge to broader discussions about faith in scientific studies versus skepticism of corporate influences.
Prepare for a spirited exchange on the challenges and triumphs of bringing beloved video game characters to the silver screen. "Sonic the Hedgehog" and "Battle Angel Alita" take center stage as Richard and Yarl unpack what adaptations got right—and hilariously wrong—when translating source material for film. Hear how Sonic's buddy-cop dynamic won hearts and why fan nods are crucial to success. From narrative simplicity to fan perceptions of power dynamics, this conversation promises laughs and fresh insights into these iconic stories.
The journey through Sonic's cinematic universe doesn't end there. Explore bold creative choices, like the Knuckles spin-off's deliberate silliness, and ponder the potential of a Sonic fourth installment. Richard and Karl critique plot continuity, character evolution, and the clever use of franchise history, all while reveling in the joy of seeing high-profile actors bring these characters to life. With both humor and passion, they debate whether the Sonic series should forge ahead or find a satisfying conclusion, contemplating future possibilities and the ever-important balance of storytelling.
Follow all things Richard and Karl, and check out "The Minuet of Sorcery"
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Hello, I thought I was going to have something witty or quippy, but instead it's just Deep Space and Dragons. I'm Richard. I go before the ant.
Speaker 2:I am Carl. I mean, we've talked about how it's not alphabetical, but it's not really a big deal.
Speaker 1:Well, I had a long internal monologue about this. Like I gathered, the seven sages went on top of the mountain to meditate on this and I figured out why it's structured this way After deeply asking myself the real questions, and I found the answer. Would you like to know the answer?
Speaker 2:I would love to know the answer.
Speaker 1:I made the logo.
Speaker 2:Wow, that is deep and soul searching.
Speaker 1:I am certain that if you were just like hey, hey, vlad, I made Carl and Vlad for said Deep Space Dragons. Look at this cool title screen and logo I'd be like guess I'm Vlad for the next hundred episodes. Because that's sick, so it absolutely lets you have that. So I think at the end of the day episodes because that's sick, so it absolutely lets you have that.
Speaker 2:So I think at the end of the day, branding comes with who is the first to write it down on the napkin. All right, yeah, we are Richard, and Carl Presents Deep Space and Dragons.
Speaker 1:Until you slide me a new logo. I kind of enjoy the idea of changing the name but not changing it anywhere. So we just give different episode titles. At the start of things It'd be like, yeah, 100 episodes and they just turn to Carl and Richard present, or they turn to the Car-Chard and the thumbnail change Car-Chard, oh man, not at my best.
Speaker 2:Do you still have your Teespring t-shirt shop thing.
Speaker 1:To my knowledge, it does exist. Yes, I may have to update my tax information on that one. Ah, Because, like I am wearing my own merch right now for my novel, because of course I am.
Speaker 2:Right, right, I mean you also have those like, like the cool, like char mander shirt where it's like char mander dressed up as char from gundam it's just so funny to think back to me like using inkscape and trying to art.
Speaker 1:It's so like. It's like some days I worry, I'm the epitome of I'll just do it myself. And then I'm like, yeah, I a good job. And then I look at an actual professional and be like, oh no, my motivation. Because it's like I can work Canva, I can work Inkscape, I can work paint. If I have to, I can do like some artwork due to necessity of who else is going to do this.
Speaker 1:But like during my co-op term, when we had a graphics person and another graphics person. I'm like, oh, I see, you just know the QR codes off the top of your head for the branding colors. Huh, I was ready to dazzle you with my knowledge, but I'm at like a first year's level and you're a fourth year level. Oh, no, people have talent and I'm scared. But before I monologue. Too much about my coworkers. What's new in the Carlverse?
Speaker 2:you have 7 minutes 7 minutes sorry wow, that took your breath away yeah, that was, and if I mix it with a unicorn? Horn, I can use it to kill a dragon so so what's new with me is that my girlfriend has, or my fiancé has, decided that we need to start taking multivitamins Correct.
Speaker 1:I've been making quips about you getting surveyed scurvy for years.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, it makes sense. It makes sense. I probably should make sure I have a balanced diet and all the vitamins and minerals that I actually need.
Speaker 1:Your primary source of dietary fiber is the ginger and ginger ale.
Speaker 2:But um, kind of a hot take.
Speaker 1:but science, you know, like modern science, medicine and whatnot you know, suggests that we should I always thought you were about to say hot take science, and then leave it sit like it's a hot take in itself, which, concerningly, is true.
Speaker 2:But science is almost like a religion unto itself where you have to put a lot of faith in all of these studies and things that you can't actually personally replicate.
Speaker 1:I'm going to pause, you right there.
Speaker 2:Because you don't have the means to actually do it right.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to put down the science denial in its place right now. So a lot of people will be like science is full of holes. You can't believe in science. By definition, science is replicatable. That's what makes it science. So it's like science will always be better than faith when it comes to multivitamins, because the magic healing hot spring at Manitou Springs may have healed my ex-girlfriend's toe it might have, but I can't replicate that. But I can absolutely deprive you of vitamin D until you start getting pimples on your tongue well, yeah, okay, I mean I suppose that's true.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying that it's like the degree of science actually like know all of these things that that particularly, uh, corporate funded studies that you know do things for multivitamins like they're trying to sell us this idea of health. I mean, I don't know, I I'm not gonna say I shouldn't not gonna take multivitamins. I I just I worry how much of this just corporate chill, you know.
Speaker 1:So I'm gonna follow up on this with like some statements because, like, I'm not counting this as part of your seven minutes, by the way. So one of my good associates is a health sciences professor and we've been collaborating In the last three years I've been reading a lot of academic articles for various work-related things, right Like putting together information learning studies. When we start reading the actual studies and see what people did and the hundreds of citations they will literally to prove that certain vitamins are what they do for you.
Speaker 1:Deprive animals of vitamins and give other animals those vitamins and watch what happened. And back about 200 years ago they'd just do that to people. But here's where it gets tricky. We know what vitamins your body needs and what happens if you're deprived of them on account of us doing that to people to see what it would do to them now do?
Speaker 1:I believe that big vitamin has a stake in you buying supplements and they had massive lobbying movements to not ban supplements and regulate supplements, yes there is some shadiness in fda approved vitamins, however, the actual fundamental vitamins themselves your body needs. We know this for certainty. Your great great great grandfather would kill someone for a lemon if they were suffering from that vitamin deficiency, because their toes and fingernails would be falling off and they would be in agony. And we've sneaked so much extra vitamins into things just in the background that you don't even realize how much food you're consuming that's already been fortified, because people just die.
Speaker 1:And people are like, well, I don't see any symptoms, so I'm going to stop having this, and then they just die. It's like when people brought back not pasteurizing milk and just died of botulism because they weren't. They were so used to it being safe, they assumed that, oh, it's not doing anything. It's like if you don't get enough vitamin D, you get sick. That's just a fact.
Speaker 2:I'm not trying to say that you shouldn't take multivitamins. Self-care is very important.
Speaker 1:I'm saying you should go to a doctor and ask them if you should take vitamins, not Wikipedia. Right, right, right or better yet educate yourself for four years in health sciences and start reading these papers on vitamins and do your own research. But when people say do their own research, they don't actually mean research, they mean Google. Do your own research means actually looking at structured studies with variables, with replicatable results, and seeing enough of those replicated results to draw conclusions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. All I'm saying is that I don't actually have the time to do those experiments or the research required to get that level of knowledge myself, so I personally have to take a lot of science on faith.
Speaker 1:And I'm saying that a lot of the science you take on faith is you taking the science on science and are so used to society coddling you that if you didn't have the science backing you you'd just be dead.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, that's true, that's true. Anyways, point of story is what's new with me is I started taking multivitamins, and I'm kind of begrudgingly doing it because it's like uh, so like here's, where we're going
Speaker 1:for the same shade on academic rigor back on your fiance. Your fiance also didn't do their research. What you should do is go to the doctor for a full checkup and ask them about your vitamin levels and if you should take supplements. That's what you should do, Well.
Speaker 2:I mean I did go to the doctor as well.
Speaker 1:I take specific vitamins that have been recommended to me for specific functions. I don't just like ooh, I need to take my vitamins to grow up big and strong. It's like ooh, I need to take my vitamins to grow up big and strong.
Speaker 3:I'm like no, I need vitamin D because I live in a basement suite and it hasn't been producing enough vitamin D, which means it's actually affecting my emotional stability.
Speaker 1:You know facts Because we can prove them and repeat them. That's why you don't take science on faith. You take science on science. Just, people don't read the science. That seems to be a trigger issue for me. You still have three minutes left of what's new with you Because I had to rant about science. I'm pro-science.
Speaker 2:No, I I'm not trying to be like anti-science, like I do think that there are lots of things that have been scientifically proven and we just kind of take as fact. I just it's like when you get into the nitty gritty of things like human body chemistry and what each individual needs, it's like half the time it seems like all these studies are saying that it's just a stab in the dark. They have this broad general number, but you specifically might be in some other range of daily requirements, right?
Speaker 1:My follow-up is that it's not science versus faith, it's faith versus faith, and one of them labeling it science Because and I can't stress this enough we know what these vitamins do on a cellular level. We just do. We have looked at it. We've physically ripped the muscle tissue out of somebody and watched the cells move around the vitamin to build the thing we know exactly how it?
Speaker 1:works. But you're right, people will cherry pick data to match their point, to sell a thing Like, for example we know for a fact McDonald's kills you as fast as smoking if you eat McDonald's daily.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:These are facts. That's how it works. It's one of those things where it's like people like to equate I don't know with nobody knows, and then we have. No, no, people have spent 30 years knowing the thing, most things are known. We have convinced rocks to carry electricity, to talk to each other, to think they're thinking, to make a cell phone for the TikTok algorithm to targetedly sell you fake news. It's like someone somewhere knows how everything works. They're just not paid enough. But yeah, that is my mini rant.
Speaker 2:That's all that's really new with me, as I'm taking multivitamins.
Speaker 1:Isn't it also fun to watch me antivitamin while fighting off a cold actively?
Speaker 2:I'm not being. I'm taking the vitamins.
Speaker 1:You're antivitamin. You're begrudgingly doing something to stay alive. It'd be like be begrudgingly drinking water. We all know I should be drinking water. It makes my skin clear and keeps me alive. Probably not as much water as I tell you, but I should be drinking water, but I begrudgingly do it because coffee tastes better Because I'm dead inside.
Speaker 2:Well, maybe you should take some vitamins for that.
Speaker 1:I have vitamins on my desk right now.
Speaker 2:But what's new with you there, Richard?
Speaker 1:So my new semester has started up and I have sick classes. One is a class that's literally like hey, it's called emergent issues in writing and it changes every semester based on what an emerging issue in writing is and what professional they can get so the fact that I'm in the body horror cyborgs class makes me a very happy person.
Speaker 2:That's an emerging issue, or like emerging trend.
Speaker 1:So the full name of the class and I need to actually pull this up to not paraphrase because I'm a good boy and I do my research, except when I'm just bullshitting, which is 90% of what I do. All right, what I do, alright. So the full name is Wrong class. Almost found the full name. This is so exciting for our audio-only listeners, which is all of them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, very exciting.
Speaker 1:They can picture in their mind's eye me scrolling on a webpage trying to find a paragraph of text Emergent issues in writing trans identities, the body and metamorphosis in horror and speculative fiction.
Speaker 2:Okay, is there a colon or a semicolon somewhere in there?
Speaker 1:Between writing and trans identities, the body and metamorphosis, and horror and speculative fiction.
Speaker 2:Right, okay, so the subsection of the class that you're doing this semester is body horror.
Speaker 1:So like it changes every semester. So like, for example, emerging Issues last year could have been like short form and poetry or something. So, for example, emerging issues last year could have been short form in poetry or something. So I specifically got the year where, like, let's read some body horror, let's read some science fiction, talk about how that plays into gender identities and binary systems of thinking. So I'm reading feminist articles on cyborgs. I'm like this is great. Considering what I'm working on as my pet project right now, this is fantastic for me.
Speaker 2:Feminist articles about cyborgs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a very interesting idea. It kind of goes back to the concept that a cyborg is literally just taking anything natural and adding unnatural components to it to optimize its use as an efficient part of a system rather than a person.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So technically, by wearing glasses, I'm a cyborg and which means that glasses are now part of my identity, because an external force can then own and control my ability to see. See, see how this is a good class. See how, when a class tells me, hey, you should read frankenstein, and then talk about the ethics of making frankenstein's monster, that's a good class. Yeah, we read a short story about someone in an alternate world where writers had to physically use their own blood to write. Oh, because that was just the source of ink. So if you wanted to be a writer, it would drastically cut down your life expectancy because you put your literal life force on the page. So new with me is fun classes. Another class I'm doing is learning to teach creative writing, work on my big project and something, something, portfolio, something, something.
Speaker 2:The class I kind of already did by being an established writer in a writing class, right, right.
Speaker 1:So can you hand in your portfolio? Do you have a portfolio already? I'm like 90% done my author website. I just have to click the live button to hand in. So that's lovely. So between that, and I did another going to the different writing and reading events. I did a public reading of an excerpt of my novel, but doing writer stuff Plus, I only have class on campus two days a week, which is just delightful.
Speaker 2:Delightful.
Speaker 1:Like today, I spent six hours reading about different teaching methods for creative writing.
Speaker 3:Oh.
Speaker 1:This is a good thing for me. Well, I was talking about how, like, you can teach people to learn things by either A taking an authoritative stance of I'm the teacher, you're the student. B having students share their lived experience to construct the teacher. C giving examples of existing media to copy. And. D it's basically like there's the instructor-focused, student-focused, work-focused and culture-focused and how, each one's good for a different thing. Like, if you have a writer's workshop and only your teacher has authority, then you squash creativity if they don't do it your way. And if you do a writing workshop where you have to copy other people, then you learn more about their style but you lose your way. But if you do a writing workshop where you assume every piece of work is beautiful and perfect and you're just trying to make it the best you can, you can kind of create an echo chamber and won't actually learn anything. So like, after reading so much such dead's text, I'm happy. This is my happy place. I had a peppermint mocha in my apartment vibing to the Sonic the Hedgehog soundtrack.
Speaker 2:I see what you're doing there.
Speaker 1:Well, the thing is, what's new with me and our topic of the week spoiler, sonic the Hedgehog is literally. I dropped like $120 in a flash sale, using my GST check, to own almost every Sonic the Hedgehog game ever made on Xbox. Now, Ah so first I got the Sonic Origins Plus Ultra collection where what they did is they put Sonic 1, 2, 3 and Knuckles and CD on one game.
Speaker 1:They updated them to run a modern hardware. But they also made it that all the characters from all four of them are now playable in all four of them, so I could play through the entire original Sonic the Hedgehog trilogy and CD as Amy if I want. And then they added all the GameCube games, game Gear games to it.
Speaker 3:So that's, like I have all the retro games in one game.
Speaker 1:Then I got another bundle that had Sonic Adventure, sonic Adventure 2, for some reason an arcade fighting game that just kind of got thrown in there. Sonic, a couple other Sonic games from that era. And then and then I got the new Sonic Generations X, shadow Generations, which are like remixes of old games that are done as cool as humanly possible so I've been playing just a ton of Sonic games because I love that movie and I think it could do more wrong, Although, ironically, the Shadows Generation game is actually a cooler version of it.
Speaker 1:But they did add in a movie crossover stage where you use the character model from the movie as Shadow, and that's one stage. He's voiced by Keanu Reeves this is an actual thing where it's like because you bought the Premium Edition as part of this bundle of all the Sonic things, ever enjoy this extra stage voiced by Keanu Reeves and Shibuya and I'm like wait what? And then Shadow's just like huh, I'm in another world and my voice sounds sick and then goes off to be Shadow.
Speaker 1:So, that's what I've been up to is unironically playing a crap ton of Sonic. So I'm going to start with your thoughts, then Spoilers we will be spoiling the Sonic 3 movie If you haven't already seen it. Pause this, Go to your theater, watch it. Unpause it. Continue you good Caught up, Alright, we're good. You wouldn't be dying this way if you started on your vitamins earlier.
Speaker 1:That's probably true, I'm so happy for the vitamin thing. I'm going to throw so much vitamin-related sass at you. This is just a present for me, but yeah let's start, let's like travel back in time, sonic the Hedgehog's first live action movie. What are your thoughts?
Speaker 2:well, I thought it was pretty good. You know, I I think it's really hilarious the whole backlash against the original design for Sonic, which didn't really feel very video game inspired, and I'm super happy with the changes that were made, although I'm not really sure I appreciate the level of fandom power.
Speaker 1:So here's what's interesting about the first Sonic movie to me, and appreciate the level of fandom power. So here's what's interesting about the first Sonic movie to me and on the notion of fandom power. So I do believe there's a certain extent there's a difference between listening to your fans and pandering to it. So the first Sonic movie was not lore accurate Like, let's look at, say, the Mario PvE or Detective Pikachu. They went out of their way to try and make those adaptations close to the source material.
Speaker 1:We look at Battle Age of Alita and Edge of Tomorrow, nearly one for one to their source material. And then when you go in the other direction, like the live-action Bleach or Fullmetal Alchemist movies missed it completely. Or Netflix's attempt at a live action death note, oh. But a lot of times adaptations will either be too close or too far, like when they did avatar the last airbender the first time, and couldn't say, and correctly, despite all logic, but they also like one for one adapted scenes badly, so there's no new content in that movie or old content, it's just kind of bungled both so yeah, sonic movie, a lot of eyes rolled when they're like green hills.
Speaker 1:Instead of being like the actual green hills, they just called it a random neighborhood and like who are these humans in my sonic movie and why do I care about this police officer? But the first Sonic movie figured out something about the character Sonic that no one else had managed to.
Speaker 1:They're like we're going to make him the child in this movie and pair him with an adult, when every other piece of Sonic media makes him the adult and pairs him with the child. As an adult he is a terrible adult, but as a child it makes sense just from, like, sheer dynamics, not really so much talking about age.
Speaker 1:So for sonic movies like okay, it's a buddy cop movie about an emotionally depressed child. That is not the adaptation I was expecting. But then they peppered in like as many like little fan winks and easter eggs as they could. We're like okay, you've filled this with enough Sonic. It's a weird thing where, instead of him just being hit and dropping rings like you'd expect out of the Mario movie, does that come up with a reason for him to be hit and drop rings To play the ring?
Speaker 2:noise.
Speaker 1:And I'm like, okay, this first movie was experimental, it was interesting. But, and I'm like, okay, this first movie was experimental, it was interesting, but I found that they've gotten better. But what did you think about the first one before we like move our way along?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean the movie itself, like the first Sonic game, doesn't really like. You can read the instruction manual to get lore, but if you're just playing the game it doesn't really have much of a story and so I I want to follow up on that one Hmm.
Speaker 1:So in the Sonic Origins collection, Sonic CD had like an animated opening to it, so they added an animated opening and ending to each of the Sonic games in the collection. Okay, they also got rid of lives completely and instead you get coins and you can use them to retry the bonus stages if you fail to get the emerald, because why, would we have lives.
Speaker 1:No one does that anymore. But like the intro for sonic, one is literally a minute long. It's eggman shows up, kidnaps animals, puts them to power robots. Sonic stops him. That's the actual plot of sonic one right felt the need to reiterate because I had recently watched the plot of sonic one and I'm currently playing through it as we speak. Well, not as we're podcasting. That'd be amazing. I'm not that good.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying that there obviously is some lore.
Speaker 1:The lore comes from the spin-off comic books.
Speaker 2:honestly, so for people who just played the game and didn't even really bother to read the owner's manual I think that that's probably most people who know of Sonic or people who are just casual fans I think they did a really good job of creating a story where there wasn't much one in the first place.
Speaker 1:And I think the thing is too. They're like okay, we're going to make a fun family comedy movie that happens to have Sonic, and it's like they didn't really pander, which was lovely.
Speaker 2:And they also had self-control.
Speaker 1:So a lot of adaptations will throw literally every concept really pander, which was lovely and they also had self-control. So a lot of adaptations will throw literally every concept they have into the movie at once and it'll sink. They're like, okay, we're just going to have Sonic and Robotnik.
Speaker 1:I mean they had about three too many human characters. But you know they really didn't need anyone other than cop dude and cop dude's deputy. But they're like, oh, we should probably make sure to have cop dude's wife and cop dude's wife's sister. I'm like, why is cop dude's wife's sister in this?
Speaker 3:we don't need that we need to make in-law jokes.
Speaker 1:Did you need to make in-law jokes? I don't think you did. Now, the joke where Sonic's like which way do I go this way? And then just comes back with seaweed, that was a good joke. Like, the idea that Sonic's on a road trip because he just has no idea where he's going is amazing, because it's true, sonic would never need a car.
Speaker 2:Sonic does not need a car.
Speaker 1:no, Well, it's kind of funny. Sonic is a character that's a really overpowered fictional character, so making him chat like a literal teenager was a solid move because, like sonic is nerfed by the knowledge that he is a dumbass. Yeah, I love when fans give like a fan argument of like why didn't he just move so fast? He stopped time and run up and rip their heart out. It's like because he didn't think of it, because he's stupid is such good retort.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:It's like a death battle thing they never consider on their show. It's like, well, we want to have an optimal and I'm like Goku doesn't fight optimally. What are you talking about? It's like, well, superman could just obliterate Goku. I'm like their fight would be interesting because Superman only hits someone exactly as hard as he thinks he can hit them without them going down, and that specifically powers up Goku.
Speaker 2:When you do that, right but like anyways, before you get too much of a tangent there, I would say overall, sonic 1 was an excellent love letter to the series and I think they knew their target audience.
Speaker 1:That's where I almost disagree. I think they didn't aim for their target audience. I think they deliberately wanted to make a new audience. I'd seen a lot of Sonic things. The Sonic X anime just straight up adapts the plot from Sonic Adventure 1 and 2.
Speaker 2:Okay, Sonic Adventure 1 and 2.
Speaker 1:Okay, and they easily could have. If someone told me I was writing the Sonic movie, I would have used the Sonic Adventure plot of Eggman's fighting a big battle against Sonic and his friends. They're already established characters. His superweapon backfires and warps him to the real world where Eggman learned that's where he's really from from his grandfather, and then a water monster's been attacking people. But, like I would just have taken Sonic Adventure's plot, which when you link all the cutscenes together is about the right length, and then filmed that.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:But it's like they didn't really like. They didn't go for like, how can I put it? They went out of their way to try and ground the movie in realism so their jokes and comedy would play off better. It's like we're completely serious about our setting, which made the ridiculousness more ridiculous.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:All right On to the second one, which became a Marvel movie.
Speaker 3:So I'd say the second Sonic movie in my opinion.
Speaker 1:Opinion better in every way, except for two scenes. They need a cut oh they did not need a dance-off of random siberian men in russia.
Speaker 1:That added nothing yeah, that was weird and they did not need the secret agent marrying the, so they added in these in-law human character and then gave the in-law human characters a wedding scene. It's like, just because you establish a character in your first movie doesn't mean you have to keep them for your franchise. I'm like, wow, that was such a choice. It's like, imagine in Star Wars if we're like, okay, well, because we had, oh, I don't know, some random alien that never comes back, let's go like, oh, because we had Grand Moff Tarkin in this movie, we need to make sure to give him screen time in the next movie so we'll have him come back as a cyborg for some reason, or like Palpatine suddenly returns like just because you'd establish a character does not mean they need to be a thing.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:So they just stop for a random, unrelated wedding rom-com in the middle of this movie.
Speaker 2:That's true.
Speaker 1:What were your?
Speaker 2:thoughts on the Sonic 2 movie Um what were your? Thoughts on the Sonic 2 movie. What um Tails is like? I went and saw it with my fiance and she thinks that Tails is like the cutest thing ever well, that's canon.
Speaker 1:I have like thoughts about how Sonic 2 handled Tails, but it's cause I'm a fanboy that I can't be trusted.
Speaker 2:But I mean, I would tend to agree that it was still incredibly fun, like the first two Sonic games, like I say, don't really have that much of a through line. It's just like Eggman's turning animals into robots.
Speaker 1:So what's interesting about Sonic 2, the movie is it followed the plot of. Sonic 3, the game.
Speaker 2:Oh really.
Speaker 1:So here's where my quip is what scene they should have had instead of this whole Siberian-Russian dance-off that they found screen time for. So Tails is like I was spying on you and I'm here now because I'm Tails Terrible. The lore or logic back when Sonic was like an animal planet thing is Sonic watched that other foxes were bullying Tails for two tails and rescues Tails.
Speaker 1:Right and I wouldn't have done that verbatim, because we don't have animal pals as a thing in this franchise. But Sonic saving Tails should have been how Sonic met Tails, because it kind of sets up their entire dynamic. Because Tails is like because reasons, I was spying on you and now I'm your best friend. I'm like no, no, you should have busted Sonic busting Tails out of Area 51 would have been great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1:So it's like you should have like had a scene setting up Sonic rescuing Tails or like rescuing Tails from Knuckles or something Other than I'm here now and I'm your best friend and I'm like, no, you missed something there. However, that's true. My counterpoint is like they did Tails dirty by not giving him a backstory, but they did Knuckles so well. I'm just going to balance it out.
Speaker 1:So the literal plot of Sonic 3 is Eggman tells Knuckles that Sonic's trying to steal his emeralds. You should go get Sonic. And then Knuckles is like okay. And then Sonic's like you're an idiot. Eggman stole the Emerald because we're distracted. He's like, oh no, but we're going to lean into Knuckles having the most himbo energy on the planet. Beautiful, Didn't know that was the solution. It was the solution.
Speaker 3:Andrew.
Speaker 1:Zalba. Knuckles is probably my favorite character in the franchise, only in the live action In the games, not even a little bit. So yeah, but it was a Marvel movie, like even color-coded characters with matching inverted powers in a sky beam.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Also, one of my favorite moments is that when he goes Super Saiyan, he just straight-up lasers Robotnik's giant robot in half and I'm like, did Robotnik just fall from a thousand? Did Sonic just straight up murder this man? Because Sonic did nothing to not murder this man.
Speaker 3:Hmm.
Speaker 1:And I'm like, oh okay, I guess Super Sonic's savage. And then they just used that to set up a hot dog joke Instead of acknowledging the manslaughter. But for the record, is it manslaughter if a hedgehog kills a man or is it just nature, especially if the man attacks the hedgehog?
Speaker 2:Uh yeah, I'm pretty sure it's just nature.
Speaker 1:Had it coming. So those are my closing thoughts on Sonic 2. Do you have any other closing thoughts on Sonic 2? Uh, no, no, um, my only thoughts would be going forward to I don't know if you Do.
Speaker 2:you have any other closing thoughts on Sonic 2? No, no, my only thoughts would be going forward to I don't know if you actually watched the Knuckles series. Yes, and it was my favorite movie of the series, so here's a hot take about Knuckles.
Speaker 1:The first two episodes were so bad I almost gave up, but then the last four episodes were like awesomely amazing so I went into it expecting garbage and I was given garbage, but what I wasn't expecting was garbage that made me laugh harder than I did at Always Sunny in Philadelphia. Like as like an action Disney Plus style epic no, as one of the worst things it's like.
Speaker 1:It's like deliberately bad, like the knuckles why are you eating grapes when your hands don't have individual fingers? Bit is so stupid, so beautifully stupid and like, oh, we're gonna use the side joke characters, the main character in the spinoff show. I'm like, oh, you have so much lore, so much setting, so many characters and it's the Wade and Knuckles Roll Trip Bowling series is what you decided on and I'm so happy they could have like, literally, had it be like a super epic, serious gritty. Daredevil. No At. Had it be like a super epic, serious gritty daredevil?
Speaker 2:No At one point there's a straight-up puppet show. It was not serious at all.
Speaker 1:It also didn't overstay its welcome either. Hmm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it was only like six episodes long.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was pretty much like the same length as we've gotten a Knuckle movie. Hmm, honestly, you could easily edit that into a Knuckles movie, which is where I'm going to pause and say something they did really bad for this movie franchise. The most unforgivable sin they've committed is Sonic the Hedgehog has had great music for 40 years and they refuse to use any of it till now, and I'm so bitter.
Speaker 2:They'd be like, oh, let's put in a pop track from Owl.
Speaker 1:City and I'm like what are you doing? You have your own pop tracks, for for sakes you have I'm using my F-bomb here for fuck sakes. You have professionally produced rap songs specifically about Knuckles and you have a Knuckles show and you're not going to have the Knuckles freestyle rap play in the background, are you stupid?
Speaker 2:That's pretty funny.
Speaker 1:Because it's like you have your own soundtrack you own. That not only is good enough that it usually wins most gaming music awards that it finds itself into, but it was specifically comprised for this character. In this situation, it's like you have Sonic escaping for a city with a song labeled Sonic Escapes from the City and you're not going to use it. You're an idiot. If they re-released those movies, they're like oh yeah, we use game soundtracks. Instead, I would re-buy them On the spot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%, it's pretty funny.
Speaker 1:It's just like oi. That's my mini rant. I hate when an adaptation just pulls in random pop music or rock music Like don't be Guardians of the Galaxy, we don't need Highway to Hell playing when you have City Breakdown Shadows. Lament on your fucking playlist.
Speaker 2:So shadows lament on your fucking playlist. So the ultimate question, though, now that is what did you think about Sonic 3?
Speaker 1:so Sonic 3 was sick, undeniably so it did everything in its power to be cool it didn't feel as Marvel movie, as it could have been, and this was the one that definitely dug the diggest of the source material to be cool.
Speaker 3:It didn't feel as Marvel movie as it could have been.
Speaker 1:And this was the one that definitely dug the diggest of the source material, because Sonic 2 was actually Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles' plot smashed together. It was Sonic and Knuckles, sonic 3, and Sonic 2 all in this movie. This movie was basically panel for panel, sonic Adventure 2. But not at all, because Sonic Adventure 2 is the most wackadoodle story ever told and they're like we're going to have the themes, the characters and the emotions, but we're not going to have Tails kidnap the president. I'm like ah, cowards, you're not going to have Tails in a mech suit, kidnap the president, you're cowards. Oh, you're just going to make your in a mech suit, kidnap the president you're cowards.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're just going to make your movie good. But what's wild is a lot of their choreography and things they did. There's so many blink-and-you-miss-it homages like literal fight choreography out of the terrible but truly entertaining Shout at the Hedgehog movie and I don't know it didn't feel as marvel movie as the last few. It's like there's no sky beam well, kind of, but not really. It's kind of you know how I really liked infinity war because it actually followed the villain, not the heroes, and that's where your character was and your character's just kind of fed a bit. I kind of felt that sort of energy. But I'm curious what you think.
Speaker 2:Well, I teared up a little bit at the. You're not a sickle fan, you're a sickle friend. Yes, also like this in like surprisingly hard, more like this emotional journey between the two characters as, as it's like, the one is beginning to question the stone, is beginning to question his relationship with robotnik.
Speaker 1:They've been slow burning that for three movies and it's one of the things where it's like you know, we started this with some missing pandering to fans versus listening to fans this is definitely there's no way.
Speaker 1:They planned that to be a three movie long romance subplot. Like no way in hell. But they're like oh, look at all this, like shipping artwork going on. It's like do we do it, let's do it. But you know how, like dei is a buzzword, I'm like no, no, no, no, no. They're just following their natural flow of how these stories should go.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Whether they planned any of this. There's no way they planned up. Well, in the second movie they drop Shadow the Hedgehog, so I guess like they planned the third one.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But like it's also kind of wild, they got to Shadow in the third movie because he was in like the 30th game.
Speaker 3:20th game that's fair, I'd have to do math.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to do math yeah well.
Speaker 2:So then, like I say, overall, I thought it was a pretty good movie with a lot. It was very, I don't know. I didn't really get much emotional resonance from, uh, sonic's storyline or but, but robotnik and stone, that one gots me well, it's kind of funny, like I kind of mentioned this where it's like yeah, no, this was Robotnik's movie.
Speaker 1:weirdly, it's just an interesting note to be like we got Robotnik, we got him meeting his grandfather, we got him getting his own Sonic. Everything's coming up, robotnik.
Speaker 3:So he kind of arced in this movie.
Speaker 2:That's alright. But so movie Um, but so I mean hashtag spoilers, he, I mean, I guess it's almost the same thing that happened in the last movie, where he gets, you know, dropped from extreme height and he's probably dead, but then he's somehow not when. But they obviously sequel, baited it with the post credit scene. And you said that Jim Carrey signed on for the next movie so here's the thing.
Speaker 1:So Marvel's biggest problem is it just kills off its villains before you can really build them up. Dc's problem is it won't kill its villains or it'll reboot the same plot threads. So there's a billion ways. The billionaire tech genius who has G's? Problem is it won't kill its villains or it'll reboot the same spot. Threads Right. So there's a billion ways the billionaire tech genius who has teleporting rings in his pocket could have escaped seeming death, Like there's some characters you just kind of give Team Rocket privilege to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Robotnik I give Team Rocket privilege to and I wouldn't give him Team Rocket privilege if characters grieved him. Because that's the thing, when you have characters get sad and you get death baited, I hate that. When you have characters be like, eh whatever, he's probably dead, I'm weirdly on board. It's not like Sonic is crying at his funeral. Sonic doesn't believe he's really dead either. No one does Guy's hard to kill.
Speaker 3:Fair. So, I'm completely fine with that.
Speaker 1:But it's like the original game, actually death baited Shadow, where they weren't sure if they were going to use the character again. So, Shadow straight up. Dies at the end of Sonic Adventure 2. Spoilers.
Speaker 3:Oh.
Speaker 1:And then the Shadow the Hedgehog game. They give 10 alternate timelines of how we could have survived, but doesn't commit to any of them, I see, until I played the Shadows Generations game last week, where it's a game that homages all of Shadow's biggest moments from the four video games he's been in.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And it's through time travel shenanigans. It's like, oh wow, this is actually a really good plot, but mostly you just have Shadow do really cool things. It's like we didn't give him a dedicated teleport and spin kick button, but like, yeah, when it comes to sequel baiting. So first off, I love the idea that they released Sonic 3 and Knuckles for the sole reason that when it comes out on DVD, they can sell Sonic 3 and Knuckles as a game again. Right, that was the entire point, by the way, of the Knuckles series is. So they could release a DVD labeled Sonic 3 and Knuckles and that is objectively correct, and it'll probably have the box art of Sonic 3 and Knuckles on it.
Speaker 2:That would be hilarious.
Speaker 1:What's wild is that, like you enjoyed the movie enough, but I'm going to put a weird context for you. Can you think of a third movie in a trilogy that did a better job being a third movie?
Speaker 2:That did a better job. Being a third movie, because like.
Speaker 3:Return of the.
Speaker 1:Jedi, not my favorite by the stretch of the imagination, return of the King needed to end two endings earlier yeah, return of the King was just way too long. Iron man 3. Bad Cap 3. Bad Thor 3 good long Iron man 3? Bad Cap 3? Bad Thor 3? Good, but Marvel's kind of weird because they kind of stop being trilogies when you have hundreds of movies and all the characters show up in all of them.
Speaker 2:That is definitely true.
Speaker 1:But yeah like.
Speaker 2:They're like, they're really like. It's so rare for a sequel to be as good as the original. Because, yeah, like third Matrix movie.
Speaker 1:It's pretty rough.
Speaker 2:The third Shrek movie.
Speaker 1:Rise of Skywalker. Robocop 3. I assume the third Fifty Shades movie was bad. It just feels like a safe bet. Hangover 3. Superman 3. Dark Knight Return Returns Blade. Third movies tend to drop that. Hangover three. Superman three. Dark night return returns blade.
Speaker 2:Third movies tend to drop well, yeah, and see, now I'm trying to think, let's, if we just look up a list of trilogies I think I hit all the big ones there in my little mini rant spider-Man 3 twice, x-men 3 three times.
Speaker 1:That's got to be like some sort of dark magic, but other than just saying things in multiples of three. My question for you, though, is do you think this should have a fourth movie? Like, how long do we want to? Because, on one hand, they have 30 years straight of stacked up source material to pull from right but on the other hand, I don't know, did we just kill it and call it a day? Do you think it justified a fourth movie?
Speaker 2:I do, like they had a fourth character, like I don't think it justifies a fifth movie, uh, but having the fourth character, amy, and each character getting a movie where they're introduced, I don't know I, I uh see, the structure is weird.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's terrible because, like I was mentioning of like how I would have approached it, I would have like introduced amy, like this movie, and then the next movie would have been the Shadow movie, but also this, let them kind of tie back to the Professor Eggman government things. It was like okay, because their goal was to try and ground this franchise. Shadow was a good plot device to ground it more Earth-based, until they get to the fact that Shadow was an alien selling a Farsean bargain with Robotnik's dad to try and save his dying daughter. Did they bring up the alien thing? I don't think they did.
Speaker 2:Sorry, who's an alien?
Speaker 1:Oh Shadow has alien DNA.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, that would make sense. I don't think they brought that up. They just said that Shadow had no idea what his history was.
Speaker 1:That tracks, but like long story short, is the structure's different than how I would have done it, where I would have went Sonic 1, 2, and 3, and then literally called the next one like Shadow the Hedgehog, because it's always like the ice cream paradox. I'm an adult, I can just order a Blizzard right now Doesn't mean I should. But I also feel like they've branched out enough that it's like they haven't quite paid off things. I want to see them pay off, but I also don't like infinitely expending multiverses of stuff.
Speaker 2:Right, I don't know. I think the fourth movie should be the last.
Speaker 1:That's a weird number of movies to end on.
Speaker 2:It is a weird number of movies to end on.
Speaker 1:Like I would give them six.
Speaker 2:What would you even want to see in the other two more movies after that?
Speaker 1:So the next one would be Amy and Metal Sonic usually go in as a duo and win their things.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:They'd go Amy and Metal Sonic, they would go Chaos, emeralds and actually deep dive into the lore of what's going on there, and then they'd wrap it up so it's like four would be the Amy movie, five would be the lore movie.
Speaker 2:Are you saying that they would break the last movie up into a two-parter?
Speaker 1:They have to, they're not allowed not to. I don't make the law.
Speaker 2:One, two, three, four and then five. Part one, five part two, and that'll be it.
Speaker 1:Pretty much Like size aside, there's just a lot of places they haven't warped to yet, like there's a fair number of Sonic quote-unquote characters they could add in, but they basically have the core cast they need now.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:Sonic Knuckles Tails Amy and then Shadow. Being edgy in the different sense is usually how it goes. I don't think they need Rouge the Bat, let's be honest. They don't need Rouge the Bat. Let's be honest, they don't need Rouge the Bat or Big the Cat, we'll be fine.
Speaker 2:Big the Cat.
Speaker 1:Big the Cat. He's looking for his froggy. That's absolutely the one I would do for the fifth movie. It's like how the Chaos Emeralds have a weird jelly monster named Chaos that absorbs all the Emermerals to spite them. It's like the plot of. Sonic Adventure 1 is like where I would wrap up the movie weirdly, because the playable characters in that who each got their own plot arc. Sonic gets a plot arc, tails gets a plot arc, knuckles gets a plot arc.
Speaker 1:Amy gets a plot arc, big the Cat gets a plot arc Gotta get that Big the Cat in here. And a robot like one of Robotnik's robot soldiers gets a plot arc. So that's what happened in Adventure. And then all those plots web themselves together to the final epic goodness. So it covers.
Speaker 2:Rebels as tribe.
Speaker 1:It covers the Chaos Emeralds. It covers that is where I would probably try and build up to, but I'd probably. It covers the cast emeralds.
Speaker 2:It covers da-ba-da-ba-da-ba.
Speaker 1:That is where I would probably try and build up to, but I'd probably release the random robot and just use Shadow instead, because he's in this now.
Speaker 1:But also, unlike adaptations, like I was saying at the start of the episode, they actually write these movies. So I have no idea how many they deserve Because they're actually writing new movies, so I don't know what's going to be in them. Like, don't get me wrong, they got the dramatic live and learn with Super Sonic and Hyper Shadow doing the live and learn thing, which is why I'm like, hey, you know that really cool movie you had that we all liked. Yeah, use your movie, use your own music. We don't need any music from the beach boys in here. Ugh, I mean, I understand why they want to do the wouldn't it be nice thing and it was hilarious. But they have their own song for that. Rah, rah, yeah, yeah, that's it for that. Rawr, rawr, yeah, yeah, that's it. Also, their homage to Chow's being just a theme restaurant was stupid and I'll allow it. Also, you know how I mentioned that they keep adding characters and now we need to keep making sure we use them, no matter what. Olive Garden Breadsticks guy got a major role in this movie.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean Okay, actually I have another question for you before we wrap things up. My first question Is the scene where the cop guy gets punched by Shadow because he's disguised as all of garden breast guy. Yeah, what? Why did they need to steal the key from her to stop Robotnik from stealing it like? That seems kind of confused me, because it was just like it felt like a contrived way to have police officer guy get punched by Shadow.
Speaker 1:So it was a contrived thing for police officer guy to get punched by Shadow. That's it. As I mentioned, it's weird to me how much, how committed they are to their human characters, whose names none of us will remember uh.
Speaker 2:But so then my other question is I believe I mentioned this in the previous episode where I had watched sonic 3, uh, but uh, a lot of the I don't know if it was just comedic timing or if it was audio timing or whatever, but Sonic's lines in particular, to me they sounded like slightly off. I'm just wondering if you have felt that or if it was just like me being weird or like.
Speaker 1:I didn't notice that, but I might have just been in a nicer theater.
Speaker 2:Fair, I do live in Saskatchewan, so I didn't notice that, but I might have just been in a nicer theater. Fair, I do live in Saskatchewan.
Speaker 1:So Unrelated, there being a secret base under the Mean Bean Cafe, which is an homage to a game called Dr Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine, makes me happy, specifically, and probably just me.
Speaker 3:Right, like so.
Speaker 1:I'm still trying to decide if I thought the Operation Catfish bit like so I'm still trying to decide if I thought the Operation Catfish bit from the second movie. I'm like this did not need to happen. I'm like, but was the bit that funny that they just had a? Completely, it's like in retrospect as a whole I almost enjoy how pointless that was right, right also they straight up killed breadsticks guy. Joy, how pointless that. Was Right, right Also they straight up killed Breadstick's guy yeah, and I don't think he's coming back. I don't think Breadstick's guy gets immortality.
Speaker 2:Probably not.
Speaker 1:But yeah, now that I've finished, what are your final thoughts? Because I've decided I want six Sonic movies with two more miniseries. I want a Shadow of the Hedgehog.
Speaker 2:Six Sonic movies, with two more.
Speaker 1:I want the Shadow of the Hedgehog miniseries that's taken completely seriously, like it's a John Wick movie as he goes through his fractured past and goes off and murders aliens, and I want him to take it completely seriously and have a comically high budget and just be attached to this wacky little thing. I don't want there to be a single joke in Shadow the Hedgehog and that's the joke. I want him to just motorcycle through a window, kill two people with the motorcycle machine gun three more and walk out covered in blood, completely straight-faced as serious.
Speaker 2:That would be pretty funny.
Speaker 1:That is in fact the joke, fun fact in the Shadow the Hedgehog game, because they're still working on like what age rating was going to be. If you hack into the game, you can find the vocal lines of Shadow, just straight-up swearing Holy.
Speaker 2:That's pretty funny.
Speaker 1:Say like you're fucking dead, as a line that comes out of Shadow, the Hedgehog's mouth in the Shadow, the Hedgehog game. And then, at the last minute, they're like maybe we shouldn't. They're like oh you cowards, If you're gonna be comically edgy, for edgiest sake go all in.
Speaker 2:That's all I'm saying well, my final thoughts about this Sonic the live action, sonic the Hedgehog Universe is that overall they're a lot of fun and, as someone who only ever played the games and didn't do any read any of the extra material, I think they feel fresh and they defy the mold for video game adaptations, because most of them are just terrible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because my final thoughts are the same, where it's like they took a lot of big swings. Some of them worked, some of them didn't, but, like someone on the writing staff said the phrase, we need Wade Wilson to hallucinate a bunch of Knuckles' ancestors in a musical number about the flames of disaster, and they were allowed to do that. No one stopped them from doing that. That blows my mind. I am so happy that no one stopped them.
Speaker 2:And then when he awakens the flames of disaster in the finale.
Speaker 1:Which is a reference to the terrible Xbox game. By the way, the worst Sonic game of all time the main villain was the flames of disaster. And they're like yeah, we're just going to call this power that. Oh man, because, yeah, tldr other than the Siberia dance party being a weird, weird, weird choice, it's just been golden. Also, I love that high-list, a-list celebrities are like do you want to do Disney or Marvel? And they're like no, do you like? Do you want to be knuckles with every fiber of my being? Like I watched an interview between keanu reeves and edris ellen's. Like my knuckle voice is down here and silly, and then you just walk. You're like I'm keanu reeves, completely seriously. I'm like what the fuck? Where's your knuckles voice? He's like no, no, shadow's not my voice, it's my voice with more pain.
Speaker 3:I just love the idea that in an interview.
Speaker 2:Keanu Reeves I'm paraphrasing a bit was basically like yeah, no when I play John Wick, I channel less pain than I do as Shadow.
Speaker 1:That's pretty funny, Like did they even have to pay these guys? Or were they like, hey, do you want to be sad with the Hedgehog? And they're just, yes, I obviously do. It's like that effect of people actually happy with what they're in.
Speaker 3:Hmm.
Speaker 1:And I know they're actors and they're probably making it, but Although I do think, it's wild that they decided to go with two Jim Carrey's, where in the original game, gerald Robotnik was just a series of shaky audio logs from a dude in a straight jacket with a bunch of math symbols carved into the wall in his own blood.
Speaker 1:Did I mention how edgy Sonic Adventure was for no reason, Like I wanted them to use the death laser to blow off a chunk out of the moon. They weren't going to do it, but I wanted it.
Speaker 2:They did blow off a chunk of the moon.
Speaker 1:They didn't blow off enough of the moon and they didn't blow up the White House, which is a thing that happens in Shadow of the Hedgehog, is the death laser just blows up the White House, cowards.
Speaker 2:Well, okay, that would have been yeah.
Speaker 1:That would have just been Truly ridiculous.
Speaker 2:Much bolder.
Speaker 1:I respect it. They went as far as they could yeah, they could, oh did your theater cheer when the little girl died? When the little girl died so when Maria gets shot off screen well, semi on screen apparently.
Speaker 2:In early release screenings that were full of Sonic fans all the fans cheered really so it's not that Sonic fans no one cheered in my theater, so it's not that Sonic fans.
Speaker 1:So it's not that Sonic fans hate Maria Robotnik. They love the idea of Maria Robotnik dying in a Sonic movie. It's like they love that they're willing to murder this child in the Sonic the Hedgehog movie hmm, that's it that's the hot take, and with that I think we go into our random questions which I need.
Speaker 2:Alright, what is our random question?
Speaker 1:where is it? Oh, it was a good one buffering, buffering, buffering, buffering. Oh yes, this is it. Oh, it was a good one Buffering, buffering, buffering, buffering. Oh yes, this is it. Ha ha, this one was handed to me in person and could be a full episode, but I'll try and get through it quickly Okay. If each captain of the Gotai 13 had to be a Pokemon gym leader, what would their type be?
Speaker 2:Each captain.
Speaker 1:So, I'm pulling up my list of numbered Bleach captains to make this easy for us. So I'll shoot off names and we'll agree on their type.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:So we have Captain Old man, fire have Captain Old man.
Speaker 2:Fire Captain Old, obviously he's got to be fire type.
Speaker 1:Maybe ghost, but fire, fire is correct.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Next we have.
Speaker 2:Soy.
Speaker 1:Vaughn the Ninja Captain, I'm feeling and if we use one up, we can't use it later so we have to be careful, because my instinct was to give her poison.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, isn't she pretty obviously yeah, pretty obviously poison, right?
Speaker 1:But I think there's a better poison candidate down the line, so I kind of want to give her bug.
Speaker 2:Because I like the one that's sting and things Like.
Speaker 1:I can see her having a bee drill.
Speaker 2:That's kind of in her color palette yeah, yeah, okay, okay, alright, I'll accept bug alright, next up, we have stupid wiki.
Speaker 1:No, I don't want their current lineup, I want their original lineup. I have to pull up another wiki, that wiki failed me. I'm like no one knows who that wiki failed okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, now I found a better list. I'm like no one knows who he failed okay okay, now I found a better list.
Speaker 1:Captain Eats your Face. Sanjin Komomoro, I'm feeling normal the.
Speaker 2:he's the wolf guy, right, the dog man, I'm feeling normal, I'm gonna normal. Yeah, I'm gonna, I think so.
Speaker 1:Captain Eisen.
Speaker 2:Captain Eisen.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Either ghost or psychic.
Speaker 1:I'll go with psychic, all right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Captain Tuberculosis.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna give him water.
Speaker 2:Captain.
Speaker 3:Tuberculosis.
Speaker 1:Captain Jishiro Ukitake, I'm feeling water, like he never really does his thing, but I feel like his swords are like called like wave something or something or other, I don't know. He seems like. He seems like a melodic kind of guy. He also has Master hand inside him, so you could go that direction well, what type would you give it to master hand fighting? Dark. I think this was like the evil, glowy version of it yeah, maybe we should give uki take dark, all right.
Speaker 2:Next we have captain freak show. Uh, yeah, maybe we should give Ukitake Dark Alright.
Speaker 1:Next we have Captain Freak Show, Mayuri Kurosuchi Poison.
Speaker 2:Is he your candidate for poison?
Speaker 1:He's a giant poisonous baby and stabs you with his poison sword to poison.
Speaker 2:That is definitely true.
Speaker 1:Next one's an easy one, captain Hitsugaya, the one with the ice dragon. Oh yeah, he's obviously ice type.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, he's definitely ice type this one's a little trickier, captain.
Speaker 1:I'm Better Than you, captain.
Speaker 2:Byakuya Kuchiki the the head of the Gotai 13 after old man dies. No, that's Captain Hippie Kuwakuchki, the head of the Gotai 13 after Old man dies.
Speaker 1:No, that's Captain Hippie, captain Hippie. No, this one's Captain.
Speaker 2:Historian to.
Speaker 1:Flower Petals.
Speaker 2:Oh, byakuya, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. Obviously he needs to be grass type.
Speaker 1:I can get behind that, he seems to know Razor Leaf. Next is Captain Hippie. I'm the grass that he seems to know, razor Leaf.
Speaker 2:Next is Captain Hippie.
Speaker 1:I kind of want to give him Ghost.
Speaker 2:Captain Hippie.
Speaker 1:I remember his attack makes you commit suicide, either Ghost or Fairy.
Speaker 3:I think I lean more towards.
Speaker 2:Ghost fairy? Hmm, I think I lean more towards ghost.
Speaker 1:Okay, I mean unless you have a hot take, but that's kind of where I'm at. It's like he has a technique where if you step on his shadow, it stabs you.
Speaker 2:Well, it's like based on Japanese children's games which are kind of creepy ghostiness weirdly.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, him having a phantom is actually really funny in that context. In like a drift, like, like his theme would literally just be like pokemon, that should be on a danger list. It's like this is oh yeah, like nimq and yeah like Mimikyu and A Rotom just cuz. Next we have Captain Retsu Unahata, or Captain Medic, who has a giant floating jellyfishy thing and is also a horrific murderer, when it came down to it. Yeah, I don't know like if I didn't already hand psychic to Aizen.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I feel like psychic or fairy, like she seems like she'd have a chancy. I was gonna say fairy it's like she'd have a chancy and then she'd have like a grim snarl or something. Yeah, I think she would be fairy type Kimpachi, like a Grimmsnarl or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think she would be fairy type.
Speaker 1:Kimpachi the most fighting fighting to ever fighting, in my opinion.
Speaker 2:Sorry, there was a bit of a lag spike. Who was the captain? Kimpachi Kimpachi? Oh yeah, definitely fighting type.
Speaker 1:All right, just double checking this list to see if we got them all. Oh, yeah, definitely fighting type. Alright, just double-checking this list to see if we got them all. Oh, captain Tozin, sorry, who Captain?
Speaker 3:Tozin the one who left with Aizen oh.
Speaker 2:I'm kind of running out of Pokemon. Well, I mean Because like I really would have given him.
Speaker 1:Bug-Type, if I didn't already give out Bug-Type, because he like turns like a death grasshopper-y thing.
Speaker 2:Let's see Darkness would also. Dark-type would also be funny.
Speaker 1:It's true. Who did we give Dark-Type to? Already we gave it to. Did we give it to anyone? Captain tuberculosis all right, so let's take it back away from him and give it to the person who makes a dome of darkness specifically like it's a little too on point, definitely. Especially. I kind of love the idea of like the blind, dark type pokemon fighting in complete Like there's a certain vibe going on there, yeah.
Speaker 3:We have.
Speaker 1:I think I'll give captain tuberculosis water type Cause I said so.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:And lastly, we have Ichimaru.
Speaker 2:Well, okay, we gave poison to captain freak show which is fair but like gin right like he was the vice captain, wasn't he?
Speaker 1:yeah, uh, he was the captain. He was also like the long con of murdering the Aizen, so it's like giving him snakebowl makes sense.
Speaker 1:But also like I kind of want to give him steel type for his kilometer long sword, but like we only have so much poison, because it's like Captain Freakshow would have like the mucks and the weezings and you have like the snakes and things. I think like it'd be a tough call which one gets poisoned out of the two of them. So I'm gonna just give them steel, because I got nothing better yeah, okay, that's fair.
Speaker 1:And I think we answered our question. We got handed Our weirdly specific one. I did not do this in a Captain number order because these lists were inconsistent and they're like do you want to use the Wizard? And I'm like the Wizard got like five minutes of screen time total among all of them. No, no, I do not want to give some themed Pokemon types. I refuse. But with that, thank you for everyone for tuning into Deep Space and Dragons, sometimes presented by Carl, sometimes presented by Richard, often both.
Speaker 2:And most of the time both. I'm pretty sure I've been on every episode.
Speaker 1:But to follow up with our like. Closing remark I have books. You could buy them. I'm not really that invested right now. However, before you're pro or anti-vitamins, please talk to a healthcare professional.
Speaker 2:Right, right, right. I mean mean, like you know, don't, don't listen to me I, I'm just spewing garbage and also I'm I'm taking the vitamins because you know science, it just corporate greed annoys me bye, there we go.
Speaker 1:Oh man, as you come in swinging hard, like you know what's some bullshit science. What well do we really know? What vitamins do I mean? I don't personally, but I'm sure I can find a cell diagram for you like I don't know. It seems like you have to be like a cult to be a scientist. I'm like I see where you're coming from, but if this ends in US politics I'm gonna have to click the pause button. It's like, literally, fact checkers were considered unfair to one side of the democratic process because they were so dependent on lies. So I might be like correcting into being super pro science, because science is repeatable by definition and if science is wrong they update the science. But I'm not super pro-company selling you science.
Speaker 2:Right. It's like I'm pro-science but I'm not sure how pro-supplements I am Fair Like if you were to tell me oh, my fiance is making me drink cod liver oil, I'd be like I am Fair.
Speaker 1:Like if you were to tell me, oh, my fiance is making me drink cod liver oil, I'd be like, okay, but maybe check with a doctor. It's probably fine.
Speaker 3:Hmm.